michael_aos Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 20-40x50mm? 60mm / 66mm body? How much magnification should I be looking at? LER? I think I want an angled eyepiece. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Definitely get the long eye relief. No clue on the power, but I'm thinking 35-40x will be the ticket. 25X seems a little shy, but who knows.... For what you're doing, I'd shy away from the zoom and go toward fixed powers. Any distortion is really going to show up at 300. Another option is Televue. I've used a Televue as a spotter for a long time. The only downside for high power is the lack of waterproofing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 I've been looking at the 60mm / 66mm. 20-60x 20-40x 20x wide-angle 25x LER 30x wide-angle The 66mm is ~$116 more than the 60mm body. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 Definitely get the long eye relief. No clue on the power, but I'm thinking 35-40x will be the ticket. 25X seems a little shy, but who knows.... For what you're doing, I'd shy away from the zoom and go toward fixed powers. Any distortion is really going to show up at 300.Another option is Televue. I've used a Televue as a spotter for a long time. The only downside for high power is the lack of waterproofing. It's not "for" camping, but I expect I'd take it camping and this year we've gotten a LOT of rain. I think waterproof would be a big plus. OK, I can cross-off the 20x and 25x. That leaves the 30x fixed, and the 20-40x or the 20-60x. I tried a Burris 20-60x80mm and didn't like it at all. Dim. Narrow field of view. A friend of mine has a Trekker 20-60x60mm and we're just not impressed with it either. I played with a $375 Nikon Spotter XL II 16-48x60mm in the Cabela's "Bargain Cave" and it seemed very nice with plenty of magnification -- but it's awfully hard to tell in the store. 60mm body - $376 66mm body - $492 30x fixed - $256 20-40x - $187.50 20-60x - $272 Or there's always the 20-40x50mm for $224 but I'd expect a HUGE difference in quality -vs- the 60mm / 66mm versions. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 Been doing some reading. I gather the LER (long eye-relief) models are preferred when wearing glasses. Since this is primarily for shooting, it looks like my choices are the 25x LER eyepiece on the 60mm / 66mm body or the 27x LER on the 82mm body. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 Bear Basin has the 60mm angled body for $329 plus $149 for the 25x LER = $478. That sounds about "right". Guess I'll sleep on it. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Schwab Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 or the 27x LER on the 82mm body. I used to have that set-up and I could not see 22 holes @ 300 yards, maybe at 200 yards on a calm, mirage free day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joer Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 I have a TSN-821 with the 20-60x. I wear glasses and I have not had a problem with eye relief. The high power guys use the 27X because they want the widest field of view to see the mirage, not particularly bullets holes. I can see .22 holes fine at 200 yds, and that is why I bought the 20-60x. I have not noticed any distortion with the variable on the Kowa, I had a lesser quality scope previously and it was the case. THe optics are much better in the Kowa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 I have a TSN-821 with the 20-60x. I wear glasses and I have not had a problem with eye relief. The high power guys use the 27X because they want the widest field of view to see the mirage, not particularly bullets holes. I can see .22 holes fine at 200 yds, and that is why I bought the 20-60x. I have not noticed any distortion with the variable on the Kowa, I had a lesser quality scope previously and it was the case. THe optics are much better in the Kowa. Do you think you could see the shoot-n-see .223 holes at 300yds? What magnification do you typically use? There are 4 "bodies" to choose from -- 50mm, 60mm, 66mm, 82mm. Which would you choose if you had to do it over again? I was thinking I should keep the "exit pupil" around 2, so 20-40x seems like a good "fit". Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 The 25X to 27X LER Kowa's are excellent scopes or .223.holes @ 300. They are universally used in High Power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joer Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 These questions really depend on what type of light there is, and how flat the target is on the backer board, how much mirage, and if the shot is in the black or not (harder to see in the black). If the light is good, no mirage, and everything else is ok, you can use a 27x to see 22 holes at 200 yds. The 20-60x buys you a little extra insurance with marginal light. Also, the higher magnifications require a more delicate focus setting. Normally, I have mine set at 20 - 40x at 100 yds - 120 yds. The shoot n sees probably have a lot more to do with seeing the holes than the eyepiece. A highpower shooter friend starting using them and he just loves them. He said it would be no problem to see 22 holes with shoot n sees at 300 yds with the 27x also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joer Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Your other question - if I had to do over again, I would buy the same body - the 82mm. It has to do with light gathering capability - and I shoot alot after work when the sun is starting to set - it doesn't bother me that the scope is a little bigger. I just like to buy this stuff once, and if I still cannot see something, I know there is nothing more I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 To reliably see .223 holes at 300 yards, I'd buy the best scope I could afford. I've used a Kowa TSN 2 for years, with a 20X Wide and a 20-60 variable, mostly for birding and often for shooting, and love it. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 To reliably see .223 holes at 300 yards, I'd buy the best scope I could afford. I've used a Kowa TSN 2 for years, with a 20X Wide and a 20-60 variable, mostly for birding and often for shooting, and love it. be I guess this just got a lot easier. Kowa 20-60x82mm sounds like the "ultimate" lifetime scope. Guess that's what I'll buy then! $842 from Creedmoore Sports Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 I couldn't live without the 20 X wide angle lens - it's what's most often on the scope. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GvU Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 As said before, buy the best lenses you can afford. I've got a Kowa TSN1 (20-60 x 77mm) since about 1986. Simply, it is great for spotting. It is a bit on the large side (no gain without pain). Spotting 6.5mm holes at 300m is straining with less objectlens diameters. I have no experience with smaller holes. I must say that the spotting was done on UIT 300m targets 600mm black (2 feet) and the holes were visible in the black. Finding the holes is a challenge. Black holes in a black target are very difficult to see, thats where quality pays off. I found that the highest power less useable except on the brightest days, the maximum I use is about 50x, less like 40x with darker conditions. The TSN2 with 82mm objective lens will have improved this a bit. As the objective lens (target side) determines how much light passes the scope, a bigger lens is very benifitial. The ocular side diameter (the amount of light useable) is the diameter of the objetlens devided by magnification. As the amount of light is dependent on the area small increases in objective lens diameter are significant in area. For this reason it is also easier to see the objects (target). Usually the weather is relatively cool when we shoot so mirrage is not a problem. With any kind of mirrage spotting the holes at long distances will be a challenge real fast. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmercury2 Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 KOWA TSN-661 with 20-60x eyepiece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 19, 2005 Author Share Posted June 19, 2005 OK, it's been a year without a scope and I'd really like to buy one this time. Still looking at the Kowa. Probably angled eyepiece. But after that I'm at a loss. 66mm? 82mm? 20-40x? 20-60x? Some fixed power? The brighter the better, and since I'm always wearing eye-protection when I shoot, a long eye-relief would seem like a plus. I suspect a 20-40x66 would be plenty, but I'd spring for a 20-60x82 or an 82mm with a fixed 27x if that's the "ideal" setup. Help me out some more. The point now isn't so much to see .223 holes at 425yds. Just something to prevent a couple trips downrange to look at my target and to use when (car) camping. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 19, 2005 Author Share Posted June 19, 2005 KOWA TSN-661 with 20-60x eyepiece <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That was one of my first thoughts. But 66mm / 60x = 1.1mm exit-pupil. I don't think I'd like that. Even the 66mm / 40x isn't "great". I'm leaning toward the 82mm in that regard. I was hoping for something I could POTENTIALLY use hunting as well, but I think I'd rather buy a smaller, dedicated scope for hunting at a later date. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 19, 2005 Author Share Posted June 19, 2005 I see there's an angled TSN-1 (20-60x77mm) on eBay for $445. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Some of the guys I shoot highpower with don't like the "newer" 82mm objective on the TSN-821. Not as clear for some reason. The 77mm objective TSN-661 and a 25x Wide/LER eyepiece or 27x LER is the best I've looked through from Kowa. 223 holes at 200 are np and 300 if the light is right. Never had a use for 60x or variable eyepieces. A friend bought a Swarovsky which is awesome but VERY pricey. Kowa scopes are tough and a good value. Check out www.jarheadtop.com for used Kowa scopes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I have the Kowa 60mm with the 25x LER eyepiece, and love it. No problem seeing .223 holes at 225 yards, I wouldn't think there would be a problem seeing them at 300 (light and mirage permitting) I bought a 20-60x eyepiece for it at one point, because I convinced myself I needed more magnification. It went back shortly thereafter - the 25xLER was *so* much clearer and *so* much easier to see thru, and the extra magnification made little or no difference. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Schwab Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 The early 82mm Kowa did have some issues which resulted in clarity issues. I thought those issues had been solved in later runs of that scope. With that said the 77mm was always a good performer. I had a good early model 82mm that was just as clear as the 77's, but I knew more than a few folks who had bad 82's. Some of the guys I shoot highpower with don't like the "newer" 82mm objective on the TSN-821. Not as clear for some reason.The 77mm objective TSN-661 and a 25x Wide/LER eyepiece or 27x LER is the best I've looked through from Kowa. 223 holes at 200 are np and 300 if the light is right. Never had a use for 60x or variable eyepieces. A friend bought a Swarovsky which is awesome but VERY pricey. Kowa scopes are tough and a good value. Check out www.jarheadtop.com for used Kowa scopes. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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