SmittyFL Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 I did a search but didn't find what I'm looking for. Is drawing a gun while facing up range a DQ by definition? Dealing with USPSA. Lets say for example on an El Prez a shooter draws the gun before completing the turn but doesn't break the 180. Or it does break the 180 but the muzzle doesn't point more than one meter rearward (uprange) past the shooters feet. Paraphrasing: Rule 10.3.4 says you can't break the 180 (90) period during the course of fire then Rule 10.3.8 seems to give you one meter rearward (uprange) during the draw It seems to me 10.3.4 would apply once the shooter is under way (whatever that means) and 10.3.8 would apply during the draw (whenever that ends, but we know that's another thread) I guess my question(s) are: 1) if you draw before completing the turn on an El Prez is it a DQ period (if so, under what rule)? 2) Do you have to break the 180 (assuming you could draw without breaking it)? 3) Do you get one meter rearward (uprange) leeway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Smitty, As far as I know if you break the 180 your going home, The problem is, With EL Prez, if you are running that bad boy any where near 5.00 or less You are breaking the 180. I don't know too many RO's that want to stand on that side of you to catch it, It happens pretty fast!! Ivan SCS Vegas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Please note that for El Presidente the procedure is written as "turn then draw." You may go here to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 I'm not talking about giving a procedural, I'm talking about a DQ. Does "rearward" in the above rule refer to behind the shooter only or rearward as far as the 180 is concerned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 The 180 is established parallel to the backstop regardless of the orientation of the shooter. The 180 is a plane. If the shooter breaks this then it is a DQ. Which means it can be broken sideways, upwards, and downwards. Rule 10.3.8 was meant for FBI cant holsters. For people with an FBI cant holster they are obviously breaking the plane downwards while facing downrage during holster and drawing activities. 10.3.8 covers this. Rule 10.3.8 is not meant to allow you to have your gun drawn while facing any direction as long as it is pointing less than 1 meter from the ground in front of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 I'll buy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Yeah, the 1m to the rear leeway is relative to the shooter, and would not allow you to point the gun within one meter uprange while facing uprange and drawing. I think I'd have a hard time turning slow enough for me to get the gun out of the holster before I had turned 90 degrees, though. Does this issue really come up? DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 I think I'd have a hard time turning slow enough for me to get the gun out of the holster before I had turned 90 degrees, though. Dogma, I guess the issue really comes up, and, no you can't break the 180 upon drawing from facing up range, that's a DQ under (IPSC) rule 10.5.2 10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not. BTW, if you think drawing after turning 90° is slowing you down, or if you're looking for a great (lawful) El Prez, have a look at Steve Anderson's video. Please note that, according to 8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire".... 8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended. rule 10.5.2 applies anytime between LAMR and reholstering completion. I once witnessed a competitor that stepped on the deck, and at LAMR command proceeded to open the gun bag; as soon as the RO realized the competitor had the gun bagged the opposite way (I.e. muzzle uprange), which was with bag open less than 45°, he immediately shut the competitor's bag, gave him a stern scolding, and instructed the competitor to flip the bag before re-attempting to LAMR. After the match was done, the competitor gladly obliged to buy a drink to the involved RO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 Not really, It was an issue with a fairly new shooter from a different training background. A buddy and I were just looking at the rule book and talking about it. Theoretically you could draw while facing uprange and not break the 180 if you kept the muzzle down or even slightly canted back torwards the berm. So we were discussing if drawing your gun while facing uprange is, by itself, a DQ. Mainly just for arguments sake, obviously it's not the preferred technique:-) I'm not trying to suggest it or defend it:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 Sky, Don't be commin' around here showing Steve's video. We are discussing human performance during a shooting match. Whatever that thing Steve does isn't normal.........just a blur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Sky,Don't be commin' around here showing Steve's video. We are discussing human performance during a shooting match. Whatever that thing Steve does isn't normal.........just a blur. Well, I know there are martians (he) and mere mortals (we), but I still dream of being able to do something similar in this life or the next 10... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Not really, It was an issue with a fairly new shooter from a different training background. A buddy and I were just looking at the rule book and talking about it. Theoretically you could draw while facing uprange and not break the 180 if you kept the muzzle down or even slightly canted back torwards the berm. So we were discussing if drawing your gun while facing uprange is, by itself, a DQ. Mainly just for arguments sake, obviously it's not the preferred technique:-) I'm not trying to suggest it or defend it:-) Interessting point - face uprange and draw that the muzzel points down range while turning....will wait for Vince's comments before trying it in a match, but it sounds as if it might be a bit faster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Interessting point - face uprange and draw that the muzzel points down range while turning....will wait for Vince's comments before trying it in a match, but it sounds as if it might be a bit faster... AFAIK, the only rule is 10.5.2. There is no rule prohibiting what Smitty suggests on a theoretical base, but I have to say it is not faster, actually it is slower. Case 1: start turning on gun's side and grip pistol at the same time, as soon as you cross the 90° raise gun and acquire sights and target. Case 2: start turning on gun's side, grip pistol and clear holster at the same time, watch for gun muzzle direction until you cross the 90°, raise gun and acquire sights and target. IMHO, case 2 involves a new action to be performed that requires awareness of the muzzle direction (rather than just picking the right moment to draw), and shifting your focus away from acquiring the target. At the very least, all else being equal, case 2 will cramp fluidity of motion of case 1, and would definitely slow down the draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 I agree with Sky, I am NOT suggesting this as a technique. I don't think it would be faster, and probably not the safest way around the block. A buddy and I just like to argue over the finer points of what is and isn't legal under the rule book while traveling to and from matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 The problem with the shooter was that he turned away from his gun not into his gun. The shooter had his pistol out will before he got around. The shooter was warned about clearing the holster to soon when asked what direction he would be going. The shooter was left handed, I was standing to his right at 2oclock. He swept my feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 Tman I agree the right call was made, I didn't even want to bring the actual incident up, nor do I know the guy that it happened to. Like I said a buddy and I were just discussing the rules afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 I understand. I also have been thinking about it as well. Hate to see anybody get a DQ and even worse DQed over a bad call. So the topic is a good one. It will help us all understand the rules better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schoonie Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 With the presumption that the 180 plane remains at the muzzle of the gun, it is physically possible to draw from uprange and not break the 180. However, it has been assumed, perhaps incorrectley, that this action is a safety infraction and as such merits an automatic DQ. Every course of fire that starts uprange uses the 'turn, then draw' language but has never stiplated that a violation of this incurs only a procedural penalty. The deafening silence to that fact leads me to conclude that this is one of those common sense safety issues that need little explanation. Unfortunately this conclussion is based upon an assumption and more often than not I get proven wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 With the presumption that the 180 plane remains at the muzzle of the gunHowever, it has been assumed, perhaps incorrectley, that this action is a safety infraction and as such merits an automatic DQ. If it works forwards then it should work backwards. What would you consider it if during a COF a competitor turned uprange facing the rest of the squad with the muzzle of his/her gun pointing straight down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Straight down ---- no problem. Even slightly uprange --- DQ. People have been known to run uprange, facing uprange, while keeping the muzzle pointed downrange behind them...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Most of the Open, Limited/Limited 10 holsters I've seen at matches are all canted forward so an uprange draw would probably put the muzzle beyond the 1 meter safety zone however an AD at that point could be deadly. On uprange starts I ask the competitor which direction he is planning to turn and then stand on that side. So far I have only had 2 gamers complain; several have asked why and the explaination is that I can better watch the gun. It does mean some extra foot work getting back to a point where I can see the trigger finger but that can usually be done as the shooter leaves the box or before the reload on El Prez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Has Anyone personally witnessed a sub 4.00 EL Prez here in this forum? Ivan SCS Vegas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schoonie Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Nik, good point, moving on the range in that fashion is well within the safety guidlines, but..... It seems that the safety issue rules are geared to eliminate even the potential for injurious accidents. Just think of the results of an AD from an uprange draw! I think the intentions are to eliminate certain behaviors or motions that, if, there is an accident there will not be any carnage to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now