Stage guns cause problems...

[dcloudy777]

I posted this over on the 3GN forum, but there's more traffic here.

I was doing some thinking about "stage guns" the other day. I did some pro/con analysis:

PRO: Many shooters, particularly not the "other than tier-1" shooters (you know, chumps like me), enjoy them, particularly if the stage gun is something exotic.

Sponsors like to get shooters' hands on product, and nothing is better than live fire.

CON: Stage guns and their effectiveness aren't under the control of the shooter. This is a big one. Nobody wants to lose match points because someone else's gun didn't work.

Stage gun malfunctions cause reshoots, and reshoots are the devil. This has been pretty well taken care of by having the stage gun used at the beginning of a stage.

I may have a possible solution for MD's and/or sponsors that want to use a stage gun in a match. Set up your stage gun at the start of a stage as fully optional, on unscored target/targets. If a shooter hits the target, or knocks over 4/5 or whatever you decide that "stage gun success" should be, than that shooter is entered in a drawing for a prize, either the stage gun, or something the sponsor donates, or whatever. This makes the stage gun an option, fully up to the shooter. The top shooters (and aspiring top shooters) aren't going to take the time, they can just go shoot the stage. The mere mortals can decide to take a few seconds (a few seconds mean a lot less to us mere mortals, trust me), shoot a gun they would otherwise never get to play with, and maybe win something. It seems like a win-win.

[Romans 13 4]

I like your idea. Set them up at the beginning, have a go at them, then get down to business. The stage bolt gun at the NWMGC was at the beginning of the stage and off the clock IIRC. It was fun to shoot, didn't interfere with stage plan or design and didn't malfunction ('cause it's a bolt gun). I also loved the way Doug and Scott did the prize table. Random draw gets some cool gear to non pro shooters and helps tremendously. I know for myself it's a struggle to budget for major matches, ammo, lodging, more ammo, etc. etc. etc.

[JFlowers]

I like the way the 3GN Pro Series has been handling it. Shoot the Stage Gun, hit the EASY BUTTON and go. Time starts with the EASY BUTTON. Not sure how they have it wired to the buzzer or if they are relying on the RO to restart the timer. An easier way might be to shoot the stage gun, assume a starting position and the BEEP!

[EkuJustice]

Im not a fan of them at all. The shooter should be responsible for knowing how to operate their gun correctly. They should not need to use a gun they are unfamiliar with and be responible for handling it correctly.

[buzzworm]

I like stage guns, but ONLY when used at the begining of a stage, where if it malfunctions the shooter can restart. Off the clock, like RM3G is doing works well, that way, when it malffunctions, it can be thrown out without tossing the entire stage. (I got the 1440 yd bonus target at RM3G, thanks to a great Marine sniper spotting , but lost the bonus as the gun crapped out, and all the bonuses got tossed) I don't like a stage gun set up on the clock, with a target at 600 + yds, and a penalty for a miss with it.

[ben b.]

I've run 2 IDPA stages at club matches that start with my suppressed .45 DeLisle carbine on "sentry steel". If both of the steel are hit, shooter may enter the "barracks" to rescue the "hostage" with no need to use cover. If not, have to use cover and hit the steel before they enter. They are fun. I should have added the start beep after the steel is engaged, and will next time I use this stage.

[dcloudy777]

Reposted this in regular size, don't know where the fine print came from, and it won't let me edit it...

I was doing some thinking about "stage guns" the other day. I did some pro/con analysis:

PRO: Many shooters, particularly not the "other than tier-1" shooters (you know, chumps like me), enjoy them, particularly if the stage gun is something exotic.

Sponsors like to get shooters' hands on product, and nothing is better than live fire.

CON: Stage guns and their effectiveness aren't under the control of the shooter. This is a big one. Nobody wants to lose match points because someone else's gun didn't work.

Stage gun malfunctions cause reshoots, and reshoots are the devil. This has been pretty well taken care of by having the stage gun used at the beginning of a stage.

I may have a possible solution for MD's and/or sponsors that want to use a stage gun in a match. Set up your stage gun at the start of a stage as fully optional, on unscored target/targets. If a shooter hits the target, or knocks over 4/5 or whatever you decide that "stage gun success" should be, than that shooter is entered in a drawing for a prize, either the stage gun, or something the sponsor donates, or whatever. This makes the stage gun an option, fully up to the shooter. The top shooters (and aspiring top shooters) aren't going to take the time, they can just go shoot the stage. The mere mortals can decide to take a few seconds (a few seconds mean a lot less to us mere mortals, trust me), shoot a gun they would otherwise never get to play with, and maybe win something. It seems like a win-win.

[EkuJustice]

Not a fan of them especially on the clock. The shooter is responsible to know how to work the guns they bring and shouldnt be required to use a new gun/platform they arnt comfortable or know how to operate.

If your useing one make sure it is one you dont mind getting abused as alot of shooters arnt going to be gentle with it especially if its not theirs ie dont bring out your nice transferrable and think the shooter will baby it because its expensive

[busyhawk]

While it is true that stage/prop guns can cause problems you need to see why MDs use stage/prop guns in the first place. There are a list of reasons but the most popular are:

1. Sponsors want all attendees to shoot and get a wanting for their product.

2. MD thinks it is cool that shooters that are not rolling in $ and are not in the Military or LE world get to fire a weapons system that most civilians don't get to.

3. Just to add a complexity to the stage...get the shooter thinking of yet something else.

Now that we know why there are stage guns, now the MD/RM needs to set the guns up for success! As mentioned above, as a minimum start the stage with the stage gun so if there is a problem you can reset the stage quickly and get on with the re-shoot, as mentioned above. Just like uncommon props you should have redundant systems/guns and ammo just in case there are problems. If possible let each shooter enjoy the stage gun by not having it on the clock.

Side shoots like what happened at the FNH match this year is yet another great way for shooters to enjoy shooting a sponsors guns and get almost everything a sponsor wishes to get accomplished. I like side matches like this better just because if my gun goes down during the stage I have no one but me to blame and cuss. If a sponsors gun goes down I get very frustrated and even though I might get a re-shoot, I am still a little pissed off and don't believe I am in control of what happens.

We (Northwest Muli-Gun Challenge) had one stage/Prop gun sponsored by RBros Rifles http://www.rbrosrifles.com and for the whole match one of the sponsors were there on stage 1 to call winds and make sure all shooters had every chance to hit the 1 target with 2 possible shoots, and not on the clock. Leupold Tactical http://www.leupold.com/tactical/ supplied the scope and we made the target very (99%) doable. We really wanted success for all our shooters and to help promote our sponsors! One of the main reasons sponsors come aboard is for advertising and that is what we strive to do.

Stage guns can be fun like at Fallen Brotheren this year with all the Remington rifles and shotguns and ammo but the lesson here is:

1. Start the stage with the stage gun

2. Rehearse with the stage gun and try to make it idiot proof (I know, they just make better idiots)

3. Don't have it on the clock

4. Have redundant systems to remedy problems

5. If possible have the sponsor there for both the sales pitch and to brief all shooters on the stage guns

Great topic...Thanks,

Sincerely,

Busyhawk

[Jesse Tischauser]

I have yet to shoot a stage gun and think, oh man I gotta order one of those after the match".

If u want to showcase your guns setup a table or side shoot and give me a reason to come check them out. Such as raising money for charity, give away the gun or a prize, something. Anytime I'm forced into doing something the knee jerk reaction is, this can't be good. Kinda like a spam email.

You gotta sell it not force it.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[spd522]

I pretty much hate prop guns of any type in a match. That is what side matches are for. And having a prop gun off the clock is a waste of time. It does nothing but create issues when it fails and that part of the stage gets tossed. Everyone who shot it beforehand wasted time and slowed the stage down for everyone.

If you must have a prop gun, have it on the clock and let the shooter furnish the gun. Tell them ahead of time to furnish their own gun and a of minimum 9mm/.38 cal. 4-5 shots required. That way they can at least shoot something they are familiar with or borrow one they are comfortable with. And no reshoots because the POS derringer had a 45 lb trigger pull that had to be pressed at a 62 degree angle to fire. Keep it simple, no open guns, but otherwise, let the shooter decide.

Craig