Question about no shoot scoring

[NicVerAZ]

If the no shoot is hit and the hit went through the target behind, say the A zone, does it count as a No Shoot and Mike or No Shoot and Alpha?

Thanks

[38SuperDub]

You only get the hit behind it if the hit on the no shoot breaks the outer perforation. So a dead center hit in a no shoot you don't get the hit behind it. A hit on the edge where part of the bullet is off the target (break the perf) then you get the hit if it overlaps the target behind it.

Sorta make sense?

[NicVerAZ]

You only get the hit behind it if the hit on the no shoot breaks the outer perforation. So a dead center hit in a no shoot you don't get the hit behind it. A hit on the edge where part of the bullet is off the target (break the perf) then you get the hit if it overlaps the target behind it.

Sorta make sense?

Yes it does.

Thanks!

[kevin c]

All targets are considered inpenetrable. If the shot on the front target was fully inside the scoring area, no part of the bullet is considered to have passed on, and no hit will be credited on the target behind. If the front hit is an edge hit, the bullet is considered to have continued on to the rear, and can score on the rear target.

A peculiarity of this approach is that, if the facing target is touching the rear, per NROI interpretations, the underlying target has NO scoring surface available where the front target's scoring area overlays it: only the "visible" part of the target is there to be hit. That means that an edge hit on the front target, where the edge scored on is directly overlying the edge of the A zone of the rear target, and the front target is covering the A zone of the rear, the edge hit scores a "C" zone hit on the rear, not an "A". Even more odd is that this does not apply if the front and rear targets are separated. Your score on the rear target is whatever the bullet hits, even if it is the edge of the A zone touched by the side of the bullet that went through the scoring zone of the front target.

ETA:

The bullet hole only has to touch the line to score, it does not have to break the perf. Additionally, the official overlay cards issued by USPSA use rings that are caliber specific, but actually fit AROUND most of the bullet holes of the proper caliber, as far as I have seen. The result is that, if the hit is really close, but doesn't look like it's touching, use of the overlay just might get you the higher score.

Edited October 24, 2012 by kevin c

[Jim Norman]

Everything covered by the portion of the NS within the perfs is considered not to exist. if the perfs are aligned, as an example the perf of the A and the perf of the NS are superimposed, then the A is as if it were removed. A hit on the perf would be a NS and a C, not a NS and an A.

[MrVvrroomm]

You only get the hit behind it if the hit on the no shoot breaks the outer perforation.

Actually, it's not breaking the perf, it's touching it. I know, splitting hairs, but it's the rule.

9.5.3 If a bullet diameter touches the scoring area of both a scoring target and

a no-shoot, it will earn the score and incur the penalty

[Flexmoney]

Here is some additional wording from the NROI "official" rules interpretation:

Question:

Target array is a no-shoot over a scoring target. The top of the NS head directly covers the bottom half of the lower A zone, with the lateral non-scoring lines of the NS *directly* over the A/C zone scoring lines of the scoring target. How is this scored?

Answer:

In accordance with Rule 9.1.5, the scoring areas of scoring targets and no-shoots are impenetrable. Whenever two targets (scoring and/or no-shoots) are in direct contact where one target directly overlaps part of another target, the area of the "under" target which is directly covered by the scoring area of the "over" target and its perforations is deemed to be non-existent. Additionally, Rule 9.5.2 is clarified to apply only to the visible portions of targets. It specifically does not apply to any area of any target which is in direct contact with and overlapped by the scoring area of another target (scoring and/or no-shoots) or by hardcover.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=37

[NicVerAZ]

Wow, this is getting complicated

Could someone sum it up in layman's language?

I know this is something that you're not thinking about when shooting, but when you score someone, you want to be fair.

I am not sure I want to go for my NROI now

[aztecdriver]

Wow, this is getting complicated

Could someone sum it up in layman's language?

I know this is something that you're not thinking about when shooting, but when you score someone, you want to be fair.

I am not sure I want to go for my NROI now

There's a picture going around that clearly shows these examples.

It's simple - if a no shoot non-scoring border (the outside line) directly lays overtop of a scoring border on a target (the A/C line on a metric target with the head of the noshoot) then the portion of the target underlying the target is "unaccessible" to the hit.

Think of it this way - the no shoot target is steel and when the bullet hit it on edge - the bullet gets cut in half with the outside part ONLY continuing - what part of the target does it hit? Only the part that's accessible

Once you see the picture it will be clear. I don't have a copy of it - but it's somewhere on the forum.

[Flexmoney]

Wow, this is getting complicated

Could someone sum it up in layman's language?

Your question was vague. There are lots of different ways it could be scored, depending on how it was hit.

[Garyg19]

If the no shoot is hit and the hit went through the target behind, say the A zone, does it count as a No Shoot and Mike or No Shoot and Alpha?Thanks

Wow, this is getting complicated :)Could someone sum it up in layman's language?

Your question was vague. There are lots of different ways it could be scored, depending on how it was hit.

LOL, not vague at all

[Flexmoney]

If the no shoot is hit and the hit went through the target behind, say the A zone, does it count as a No Shoot and Mike or No Shoot and Alpha?Thanks

Wow, this is getting complicated :)Could someone sum it up in layman's language?

Your question was vague. There are lots of different ways it could be scored, depending on how it was hit.

LOL, not vague at all

There are at least 3 different answers to that question.

[CZinSC]

Go to post #9 in the link below for a picture of overlapping targets and the proper call for each shot.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108162&hl=overlapping%20target&st=0

[Garyg19]

If the no shoot is hit and the hit went through the target behind, say the A zone, does it count as a No Shoot and Mike or No Shoot and Alpha?Thanks

Wow, this is getting complicated :)Could someone sum it up in layman's language?

Your question was vague. There are lots of different ways it could be scored, depending on how it was hit.

LOL, not vague at all

There are at least 3 different answers to that question.

Flex, I'll defer to your greater knowledge. It just seemed to me the question was clear (and a good one), but required a somewhat complex answer given different possible circumstances. Perhaps a case of fire, ready, aim on my part.

[Tim/GA]

This is the reason to NOT overlay the scoring perfs exactly unless required (like in some of the classifiers, particularly older ones). It was even a topic we talked about in the RO class with the recommendation not to lay the pefs on each other. Besides, it is hard to get it exactly right that way.