Need help in picking open shotgun for 3 gun

[Rye]

I've been wanting to get serious with 3 gun competition. I know that i'll be shooting open division since that's what I shoot in USPSA or IPSC. My dilemma is choosing an open shotgun. I know there are several people who makes a saiga open shotgun ready but which one should I go with. Thanks. Any input or experience with these builders and their guns are surely appreciated.

[Alaskapopo]

I've been wanting to get serious with 3 gun competition. I know that i'll be shooting open division since that's what I shoot in USPSA or IPSC. My dilemma is choosing an open shotgun. I know there are several people who makes a saiga open shotgun ready but which one should I go with. Thanks. Any input or experience with these builders and their guns are surely appreciated.

The best open shotgun in my opinion is the R&R Saiga. Mine has served me well. Rob will take care of you. My friend 9x23 guy has used my R&R Saiga to win ever large match in our state this year in open and I followed him on 2 of those three matches at 2nd place. The one match I got 4th. At last years Texas Multigun Nationals on the all shotgun stage with buck and bird 9x23 guy came in 4th and I got 5th place on that stage out of 52 shooters. If you want the best go with R&R.

http://randrtargets.com/site/

Also 4 R&R Saiga shotguns were in the top 7 slots at the Nordic Tactical Shotgun Championships this year. I have gone against AKDAL's and Xrails and tube guns and I feel that my choice has made it easier to win in the shotgun events.

Pat

Here is mine.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

The saiga does fine on the short stages but it really kicks butt on the long stages with lots of targets.

I came in second behind my friend on this stage I had one miss on steel and still finished 20 seconds ahead of the next shooter.

This is 9x23guy shooting it the correct way (faster)

[Rye]

I've look into the R&R saiga. It's quite expensive though. Is it really worth it. Do they always run? Any particular thing I need to know about this gun so I won't run into problems. Thanks.

[Alaskapopo]

I've look into the R&R saiga. It's quite expensive though. Is it really worth it. Do they always run? Any particular thing I need to know about this gun so I won't run into problems. Thanks.

Mine runs very well but I admit there was a bit of a learning curve. These guns like Winchester AA cases or Remington STX cases (remington is the best)1 1/8 ounce of shot and 3 dram. The reason being these cases are smooth and harder and feed better. You do need to change the recoil spring fairly often. I don't have a round count figure yet but if I start to get bolt over ride malfunctions that means that a new recoil spring is needed. I generally change it every 4 matches or so. Thats about 300 rounds. It uses 1911 recoil springs so their cheap. Also keep the gas pistol area clean. I clean this before every match and I lube the gun well. Over the course of the last 4 matches I had one malfunction shooting left handed (was not solid behind the gun) and that was fixed by simply running the action. So yes the gun runs very well. Its like any open gun they require more TLC than tac optics guns. It is defiantely worth it. The first season I ran my R&R I could not afford an Open pistol because I put my money into the shotgun. I still won matches shooting my limited pistol in open. The reason being the shotgun gave me that much of an advantage. Later I got an open pistol and things improved even more. Then I met 9x23guy and I let him shoot my shotgun and he has pretty much beaten me with my own gun ever since. He has his own R&R now. Last match I let another friend use my R&R and he beat me on the shotgun stage with my own gun by 1 second. My point is this gun is a huge advantage over the competition. Its definately worth it. It is expensive and a hard pill to swallow but it runs. Lets compare it to the competion. Two of my friends have Firebird AKDAL's and their not shooting them in matches because they simply are not running right yet. I also have two friends with XRails and they used them for a bit and have stopped due to some reliablity issues. So in my experience the R&R Saiga is the gun to have for Open division in my opinion.

Something else to keep your gun running well load the magazines with the correct number of rounds. Meaning you can put 13 rounds in a 12 round mag but it won't feed. Count as you load the mag or load it full and strip one round out. The guns cost a lot because Rob goes over every part to make sure everyting works together properly.

Pat

Edited October 12, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[gose]

Open shotguns are iffy. I have seen plenty of R&R shotguns go down in matches, though that pretty much holds true for most open shotguns.

I have one of the very first Firebird Akdals and its been a pretty bumpy road this season. The gun has been absolutely flawless with anything I've thrown at it, as long as I've been using the factory five-rounders, but with the 10 rounders, the story has been slightly different. However, after switching to better ammo (I now use AAs), Gen 2 of the 10 rounders and with the upgraded springs, my gun now runs like a Swiss watch.

The feel and handling of the Akdal is more like an AR, which is nice and it's also almost $1000 cheaper than the R&R Saiga.

IMHO, the biggest downside of the Akdal is the lack of any 10+ round mags, if we could get some reliable 15 rounders, it would be a killer.

Yes, I've had a bit of a rough time with my Akdal, but I've shot my buddy's R&R and if I had to do it all over again, I'd still pick the Akdal. The Saiga might still have a slight edge because of the mag situation, but the Saiga has been around for a while and its not really getting any better. The Akdal has been here less than a year and its already pretty much on par with the Saiga, and there's still a lot of room for improvement!

Here's me running my Akdal at SMM3G earlier this year, after having had the gun in my possession for about a week...

In the second video I had to rack it, since the heavier buckshot made the bolt outrun the magspring, with the new springs, this is a thing of the past.

Edited October 12, 2012 by gose

[Alaskapopo]

The only AKDAL I have seen run flawlessly is the one in the Firebird video belonging to the owner. There is the mag situation and there is also the recoil situation. The AKDAL kicks quite a bit more with the same ammo when I fired it compared to my Saiga. Not nearly as easy to shoot fast at least for me. The AKDAL has potential but it needs bigger mags and a better comp. Also its not so much that open guns are iffy its that they require maintance. A big plus for the AKDAL is the lower cost but at this point its worth it to buy a R&R Saiga that runs and you can buy mags from 5 to 20 rounds for. At least AKDAL fans are not proclaiming the death of the Saiga anymore since the AKDAL has hit a huge pot hole with the mag and reliablity situation of late. Good to hear your mags are working good.

Pat

Edited October 12, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Rye]

What's the recoil spring weight to use to maintain reliability of R&R saiga?

[nipplehead]

The only AKDAL I have seen run flawlessly is the one in the Firebird video belonging to the owner. There is the mag situation and there is also the recoil situation. The AKDAL kicks quite a bit more with the same ammo when I fired it compared to my Saiga. Not nearly as easy to shoot fast at least for me. The AKDAL has potential but it needs bigger mags and a better comp. Also its not so much that open guns are iffy its that they require maintance. A big plus for the AKDAL is the lower cost but at this point its worth it to buy a R&R Saiga that runs and you can buy mags from 5 to 20 rounds for. At least AKDAL fans are not proclaiming the death of the Saiga anymore since the AKDAL has hit a huge pot hole with the mag and reliablity situation of late. Good to hear your mags are working good.

Pat

My Akdal Runs 100% I had a small learning curve but there was one...hearing that many more are now running trouble free...mine likes 2 3/4 dram eq. loads . I reload a 1oz 12000FPS with STS hulls.but it will run other stuff..cant claim it will run any thing though. Comparing it to a R&R Saiga..well the Saiga still has the advantage of more available mag capacity and might shoot softer. In the monthed to come the gap should close. For now money no object then the R&R has the Advantage..for me to shoot open though..it would be mag feed only

[gose]

The only AKDAL I have seen run flawlessly is the one in the Firebird video belonging to the owner. There is the mag situation and there is also the recoil situation. The AKDAL kicks quite a bit more with the same ammo when I fired it compared to my Saiga. Not nearly as easy to shoot fast at least for me. The AKDAL has potential but it needs bigger mags and a better comp. Also its not so much that open guns are iffy its that they require maintance. A big plus for the AKDAL is the lower cost but at this point its worth it to buy a R&R Saiga that runs and you can buy mags from 5 to 20 rounds for. At least AKDAL fans are not proclaiming the death of the Saiga anymore since the AKDAL has hit a huge pot hole with the mag and reliablity situation of late. Good to hear your mags are working good.

Pat

I think I've seen R&R Saigas jam at pretty much every major match Ive been to, so at this point with the new Gen 2 mags and stronger springs, I'm not sure if the R&R Saigas have much better reliability than the Firebird Akdals. My buddy even gave up on trying to get the 20 rounders to work in his R&R and just stuck with 12 rounders instead.

However, I do agree that right now the Saiga has the edge because of the mags and better comp. I knew that very well when I bought my Akdal, but for me it wasnt worth paying a premium to get the very best right now, especially since I knew that this year was going to be an off-year for me. I preferred to invest in a platform that has the potential to do everything the Saiga can and more, to a lower price. For that I'm willing to wait a little.

To the OP, as always, the best way to figure out what works best for you is to test them both. The R&R Saiga and Firebird Akdal will serve you fine no matter which you you end up with, which one you ultimately pick is more based on what quirks and features are more important to you.

Edited October 12, 2012 by gose

[Alaskapopo]

What's the recoil spring weight to use to maintain reliability of R&R saiga?

17 pound 1911 recoil spring.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

The only AKDAL I have seen run flawlessly is the one in the Firebird video belonging to the owner. There is the mag situation and there is also the recoil situation. The AKDAL kicks quite a bit more with the same ammo when I fired it compared to my Saiga. Not nearly as easy to shoot fast at least for me. The AKDAL has potential but it needs bigger mags and a better comp. Also its not so much that open guns are iffy its that they require maintance. A big plus for the AKDAL is the lower cost but at this point its worth it to buy a R&R Saiga that runs and you can buy mags from 5 to 20 rounds for. At least AKDAL fans are not proclaiming the death of the Saiga anymore since the AKDAL has hit a huge pot hole with the mag and reliablity situation of late. Good to hear your mags are working good.

Pat

I think I've seen R&R Saigas jam at pretty much every major match Ive been to, so at this point with the new Gen 2 mags and stronger springs, I'm not sure if the R&R Saigas have much better reliability than the Firebird Akdals. My buddy even gave up on trying to get the 20 rounders to work in his R&R and just stuck with 12 rounders instead.

However, I do agree that right now the Saiga has the edge because of the mags and better comp. I knew that very well when I bought my Akdal, but for me it wasnt worth paying a premium to get the very best right now, especially since I knew that this year was going to be an off-year for me. I preferred to invest in a platform that has the potential to do everything the Saiga can and more, to a lower price. For that I'm willing to wait a little.

To the OP, as always, the best way to figure out what works best for you is to test them both. The R&R Saiga and Firebird Akdal will serve you fine no matter which you you end up with, which one you ultimately pick is more based on what quirks and features are more important to you.

One thing that was brought up by a previous poster and myself is that yes your going to see open guns malfunction they need to be maintained. Every AKDAL I have seen in person has malfunctioned and in your video yours did as well. However if you do that maintance and I am speaking for the R&R it will run. Open guns in general need more TLC than Tac Optics guns, just the way it is. I bet many of the R&R's you see with issues were operator error on maintance. Is it a gun you can just shoot forever without cleaning like a Benelli no. Neither is the AKDAL. Glad to see some people have gotten it running better. I have also seen mys hare of tube fed open shotguns choke. The longer I have had my Saiga the better its gotten. I am not sure why Firebird has not put a bigger comp like the one on the R&R Saiga on their shotgun. Also bigger mags need to be made. I am happy to see another mag fed shotgun competing with the Saiga with more competition comes better products. I would love it for a mainstream company to produce a mag fed shotgun, say Benelli or Remington. As for your buddy with his 20 round mag have him send it back to Rob he will take care of it. My first 20 round mag did not work the replacement I got works great.

Another example of open guns needing more TLC. I just bought a Steelmaster froma friend who has some reliablity issues with it. I did some simple work to it like de activating the slide stop and putting grams followers in the mags and spacer for the 9mm and now it runs like a champ. Some shooters out there don't have the time or don't take the time to find out what their open guns need to run. My friend is a great guy but he has since stopped shooting open because he did not want to deal with the maintance involved in keeping open guns running. He is happy as a clam in tac optics.

Pat

Edited October 12, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[gose]

One thing that was brought up by a previous poster and myself is that yes your going to see open guns malfunction they need to be maintained. Every AKDAL I have seen in person has malfunctioned and in your video yours did as well. However if you do that maintance and I am speaking for the R&R it will run. Open guns in general need more TLC than Tac Optics guns, just the way it is. I bet many of the R&R's you see with issues were operator error on maintance. Is it a gun you can just shoot forever without cleaning like a Benelli no. Neither is the AKDAL. Glad to see some people have gotten it running better. I have also seen mys hare of tube fed open shotguns choke. The longer I have had my Saiga the better its gotten. I am not sure why Firebird has not put a bigger comp like the one on the R&R Saiga on their shotgun. Also bigger mags need to be made. I am happy to see another mag fed shotgun competing with the Saiga with more competition comes better products. I would love it for a mainstream company to produce a mag fed shotgun, say Benelli or Remington. As for your buddy with his 20 round mag have him send it back to Rob he will take care of it. My first 20 round mag did not work the replacement I got works great.

Absolutely, Open guns need a lot more TLC than most other guns, no disagreement there. I also quite sure that there arent any open shotguns that never malfunctioned

There are definitely aspects of the Saiga that will make it a more attractive to some buyers than the Akdal, especially if money isnt an issue. My objection was basically against the statement that the R&R Saiga is more reliable than a Firebird Akdal, since thats not necessarily true in my experience. I also assumed we're talking Firebird Akdals vs R&R Saigas here? Are both your buddies non-working Akdals Firebird built guns with Gen 2 mags and the new springs?

Edited October 12, 2012 by gose

[Alaskapopo]

One thing that was brought up by a previous poster and myself is that yes your going to see open guns malfunction they need to be maintained. Every AKDAL I have seen in person has malfunctioned and in your video yours did as well. However if you do that maintance and I am speaking for the R&R it will run. Open guns in general need more TLC than Tac Optics guns, just the way it is. I bet many of the R&R's you see with issues were operator error on maintance. Is it a gun you can just shoot forever without cleaning like a Benelli no. Neither is the AKDAL. Glad to see some people have gotten it running better. I have also seen mys hare of tube fed open shotguns choke. The longer I have had my Saiga the better its gotten. I am not sure why Firebird has not put a bigger comp like the one on the R&R Saiga on their shotgun. Also bigger mags need to be made. I am happy to see another mag fed shotgun competing with the Saiga with more competition comes better products. I would love it for a mainstream company to produce a mag fed shotgun, say Benelli or Remington. As for your buddy with his 20 round mag have him send it back to Rob he will take care of it. My first 20 round mag did not work the replacement I got works great.

Absolutely, Open guns need a lot more TLC than most other guns, no disagreement there. I also quite sure that there arent any open shotguns that never malfunctioned

There are definitely aspects of the Saiga that will make it a more attractive to some buyers than the Akdal, especially if money isnt an issue. My objection was basically against the statement that the R&R Saiga is more reliable than a Firebird Akdal, since thats not necessarily true in my experience. I also assumed we're talking Firebird Akdals vs R&R Saigas here? Are both your buddies non-working Akdals Firebird built guns with Gen 2 mags and the new springs?

I think they are both waiting on gen 2 mags. Parts availability has also been an issue with Firebird. In my experience My Saiga has been more reliable than their AKDAL's but that is from a sample of 1 vs 2. I think both platforms can run. The Firebird AKDAL is just the new kid on the block and needs time to get de bugged.

Pat

[nipplehead]

Many Akdal owners are there own worst enemies..and yes mine is a Firebird and we are talking Firebird.

First off the gun has sharp edges . the top of the bolt shaved the top of the receiver the first time out. All that had to be smoothed out big time,

2, Next source of malfunction was the edges in the throat of the barrel especially where the extractor notch is..smooth all those edges..and if you have a remmy 1100 compare the Akdal them and make sure is at least as smooth.

3,Finally the action arms ..the bottom machining was like a hacksaw blade..smooth this area out and polish. After that my action was like butter...No malfunctions ..really no bull..I can run my gen 1 mag or my three gen 2 mags with out problem..and i dont have the newest springs.

Here is where many firebird owners screw themselves : ammo choice..they ordered the new gas system..(designed to shoot light loads..Im talking 1150 FPS in a 1 1/8 or 1200 FPS in a 1 ounce load ) Jim make that system way efficient..all these guys that cant get it to run are shooting heavy loads..the bolt is out running the springs..they would be better off with the stock gas system if thats what they are gunna run...its a no brainer!!!

On top of that for a semi..this gun packs a lot of recoil shooting heavy loads is gonna put a hurt on my shoulder!!! I dont get it.. Run light loads after you smooth the edges and she will run.

Edited October 12, 2012 by nipplehead

[gose]

Also, it looks like Molot VEPRs are about to hit the country and since these will come from the factory with a pistol grip and mag well, they should be way cheaper to convert to a race gun than the current Saiga imports.

So, if you prefer AK style over an Akdal, buying an R&R Saiga now might be a bad move, probably better to wait a little. The Molot VEPRs have been used in competition for years in Europe, so there should be plenty of after market parts already, including magazines...

Edited October 12, 2012 by gose

[ctay]

Also, it looks like Molot VEPRs are about to hit the country and since these will come from the factory with a pistol grip and mag well, they should be way cheaper to convert to a race gun than the current Saiga imports.

So, if you prefer AK style over an Akdal, buying an R&R Saiga now might be a bad move, probably better to wait a little. The Molot VEPRs have been used in competition for years in Europe, so there should be plenty of after market parts already, including magazines...

According to this: VEPR 12 the VEPR can even take SAIGA magazines.

[Jadeslade]

Also, it looks like Molot VEPRs are about to hit the country and since these will come from the factory with a pistol grip and mag well, they should be way cheaper to convert to a race gun than the current Saiga imports.

So, if you prefer AK style over an Akdal, buying an R&R Saiga now might be a bad move, probably better to wait a little. The Molot VEPRs have been used in competition for years in Europe, so there should be plenty of after market parts already, including magazines...

According to this: VEPR 12 the VEPR can even take SAIGA magazines.

Where are Molot VEPRS about to hit the country?

[gose]

Where are Molot VEPRS about to hit the country?

Centerfire is taking pre-orders, saying they'll be here in less than two weeks. $999 is the current price.

Can't say I'm surprised, when ATF allowed import of Akdals, I figured it was only a matter of time before Molots and pistolgripped Saigas were imported.

VEPR 12

Edited October 12, 2012 by gose

[Rye]

You can pre-order molots here http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/russian-vepr-12-gauge-shotgun-molot-preorder-p-3219.html

[Montana3gunner]

I shot an AKDAL this year, including at the MGM IM. It is not a FB, but is modded with just about everything it could be. Like most of the Saigas I've seen, it is finicky about which ammo it likes. I run 3 1/4 dram loads, and they work fairly well. I use FB mags, but not the newer springs. I can't seem to get a hold of FB to get the newer springs, but am hoping to before next season.

I have come to believe that the steep feed ramps contribute to feed problems, especially when the ammo gets warm. Later in the year I started keeping my ammo in a cooler and that helped quite a bit, but that is not a realistic long term solution. I am going to be looking at better solutions this winter.

The Akdal is very light and recoil is stiff. However, by weighing the gun down and adding a comp on the end of the barrel, it greatly improves recoil. I added about 2 1/2 lbs.

When comparing the cost of variuous open shotguns, you need to consider the cost of mags and upgrades. For the AKDAL, you only have 5 and 10 rounders available. The FB 10 rounders are a work of art but $140 ea and very tough to get. There are some other 10 rounders on the verge of coming to market that should be less $, but I'm not sure how much.

Maybe more important is the fact that there are no 20 rounders available. If you are competing against a guy with a Saiga and a 20 rounder, and both your gun and his gun run...it's very tough to compete. Especially on a COF with …12-18 rounds of shotgun.

However, the Akdal has tremendous potential. It needs reliable 20 round mags, and some minor improvements on the 10 rounders. A better feed ramp would improve reliability. It shoots slugs just ok, would be nice to improve that. Down the road, it could use an aluminum lower, but at this point, the concerns about the plastic lower are mostly subjective. Once I added some weight, I love shooting the Akdal. The controls are great and mag changes a breeze. Mine patterns very accurately.

The Saigas, including R and Rs, can all have problems. Sometimes significant. Dave Schafers Saigas run as well as any, and he modded his.

Keep in mind that if you get the gas system from FB for lighter loads, it is not designed for heavy loads and more and more stage designs favor some kind of heavy load, even if it's only a couple rounds (like a shotgun spinner).

[gose]

When comparing the cost of variuous open shotguns, you need to consider the cost of mags and upgrades. For the AKDAL, you only have 5 and 10 rounders available. The FB 10 rounders are a work of art but $140 ea and very tough to get. There are some other 10 rounders on the verge of coming to market that should be less $, but I'm not sure how much.

<snip>

It shoots slugs just ok, would be nice to improve that.

Factory 10 rounders should be on the market within weeks, rumored MSRP is < $80.

Not sure what you consider good, but I went to the range to zero my Akdal today and my 75y 5-shot groups were around 4-5". Thats good enough for me...

[Alaskapopo]

Another great day with 2 R&R Saigas at yeasterdays match.

Friend shooting my gun. His first time shooting a Saiga.

9x23 guy with his new R&R Saiga.

[GentlemanJim]

I will answer a few MKA questions here.

Lets start with recoil, In the Saiga the gas system is shortened, this allows porting closer to the chamber.

Being able to dump so much energy early in the cycle when pressure is still quite high, results in the low felt recoil.

Its not an issue of the comp being better, you can take them off and still have about the same recoil.

The MKA design does not allow a shortened gas system, and it has a long pressure dwell time to cycle correctly.

This and other issues prevent ports or comps from being placed very far back on the barrel, so they are less effective.

The biggest issue I see with the Saiga is maintainability, NO major components are available!

I know several people who have broken bolt carriers, and have had to buy a new gun just for parts.

I also know a number of people that have run various Saigas for many years with HIGH round counts that have had to repeatedly replace battered and worn out guns.

With a cost north of $3000.00, no replacement parts and a rather short life span, I was unwilling to continue manufacturing them.

The MKA has is own list of shortcomings, but parts availability is not among them.

And most of the top issues in the MKA have been addressed or are being addressed.

You have to keep in mind the Saiga has been here for well over 20 years, I have been building MKAs for one year.

In the next year many new things are going to happen with the MKA, that will eclipse what has come before.

Please don't get the wrong idea about what I am saying here, both guns are highly capable, and well suited to competition.

Its just a simple evaluation, In my opinion the Saiga has come about as far as it can, and the MKA has a bright future in respect to where it is now.

Time will tell...I am just getting started

Jim

[Zebraman]

Does anyone know if the spares situation will be any different with the Molot?

Z