kneelingatlas Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) Alright, I've been working on a compensated 9mm upper for a while and I have come across some interesting facts: small frame Witness barrels and large diameter CZ barrels(Tactical Sport, SP01, Champion) are approximately the same OD: .551" or 14mm, as well as Jericho 941 barrels (manufactured by Tanfoglio in some/all cases?); CZ75B 9mm and older Tanfoglios have a barrel with an OD of .502" (12.75mm???). I was told by someone at CZ that the Champion threaded barrel for sale on the CZ-USA webstore was threaded M14X1 (which makes sense because the barrel is 14mm in diameter and there are 10 threads per cm), I bought a small frame Witness compensator from Numrich which also had 10 threads per cm, but the two would not mate together. The threads in the comp seemed to be shallower than those of the CZ barrel, not to mention the Champion barrel is short, overall, including 3/4" of threads it measures 4.5" from breech to muzzle (the same as an SP01, don't get me started on CZ's advertised barrel lengths!), so you would have to cut 3/4" off a standard length slide to screw on a compensator. Luckily the CZ Webstore has a great return policy and I was able to return the Champion barrel for a full refund. I then bought a 9mm tactical Sport barrel which actually measures 5.1" which is perfect for use with a standard length slide and comp, now I just have to thread it! I have been told CZ, Tanfoglio and Springfield threaded barrels all have a different thread, which leads me to believe since they all have a 14mm OD that they all use some oddball, non standard thread. I believe the threads in the comp are shallower than a standard 14x1, but have the same thread pitch, I'm thinking of buying a M14X1 tap and die, threading the barrel and reaming the threads in the comp. Does anyone have any useful information for me from their own experiences? And no, I don't want to just get a Glock. Yes I'm crazy, but aren't we all? Edited September 18, 2012 by kneelingatlas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vous Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Alright, I've been working on a compensated 9mm upper for a while and I have come across some interesting facts: small frame Witness barrels and large diameter CZ barrels(Tactical Sport, SP01, Champion) are approximately the same OD: .551" or 14mm, as well as Jericho 941 barrels (manufactured by Tanfoglio in some/all cases?); CZ75B 9mm and older Tanfoglios have a barrel with an OD of .502" (12.75mm???). I was told by someone at CZ that the Champion threaded barrel for sale on the CZ-USA webstore was threaded M14X1 (which makes sense because the barrel is 14mm in diameter and there are 10 threads per cm), I bought a small frame Witness compensator from Numrich which also had 10 threads per cm, but the two would not mate together. The threads in the comp seemed to be shallower than those of the CZ barrel, not to mention the Champion barrel is short, overall, including 3/4" of threads it measures 4.5" from breech to muzzle (the same as an SP01, don't get me started on CZ's advertised barrel lengths!), so you would have to cut 3/4" off a standard length slide to screw on a compensator. Luckily the CZ Webstore has a great return policy and I was able to return the Champion barrel for a full refund. I then bought a 9mm tactical Sport barrel which actually measures 5.1" which is perfect for use with a standard length slide and comp, now I just have to thread it! I have been told CZ, Tanfoglio and Springfield threaded barrels all have a different thread, which leads me to believe since they all have a 14mm OD that they all use some oddball, non standard thread. I believe the threads in the comp are shallower than a standard 14x1, but have the same thread pitch, I'm thinking of buying a M14X1 tap and die, threading the barrel and reaming the threads in the comp. Does anyone have any useful information for me from their own experiences? And no, I don't want to just get a Glock. Yes I'm crazy, but aren't we all? I seem to remember reading or seeing something somewhere that the thread for these barrels is 14 x 0.75. I will try and find where I saw it and post confirmation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glk21C Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 try asking Rich at Canyon Creek as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugiv Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I working on getting my 10mm compensated and would I just need to buy a 6 inch barrel and have it threaded by a gunsmith? It seems like finding a barrel with the correct threads is the issue so Ill bypass that by threading it myself. Do you need a different guiderod for the comp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 Success! It is confirmed, the thread pitch for Tanfoglio small frame is M14X0.75, unconfirmed, but highly suspected is that the thread pitch for Tanfoglio large frame is M15X0.75. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 I working on getting my 10mm compensated and would I just need to buy a 6 inch barrel and have it threaded by a gunsmith? It seems like finding a barrel with the correct threads is the issue so Ill bypass that by threading it myself. Do you need a different guiderod for the comp? Dugiv, what size slide do you have? The problem with having too little barrel sticking out is obvious, but the problem with say a 6" barrel in a longslide is that you have too much barrel sticking out. The comp is made to accept about 0.6" of threaded barrel, so if you have 1.25" sticking out, you'll want to cut it down; if you cut it, you need to re crown it or it won't shoot straight. If you could locate a Gold Team conversion kit in .40, you could ream the chamber to 10mm (of course I don't think Gold Team conversions are any easier to come by than 6" barrels). I'm actually using a 5.1" CZ Tactical Sport barrel which sticks out of my SP01 slide by 0.6" (just right, no cutting needed): As far as the guide rod goes, you'll want about 0.25" extra stiking through the slide into the comp to keep in indexed. In the picture above I actually was using the stock SP01 guide rod so the comp was indexed on the frame rails, but since the comp wanted to unscrew while shooting, the rails scratched the comp a little. I have since ordered a guiderod from a Tanfoglio longslide which is just the right length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugiv Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Thanks for the info. I have one of the newer elite matches, with the railed frame. I will take measurements tomorrow when I get a minute. I noticed on sprinco's site they have guiderod for 5.25 inch "longslide" model and the gold custom model. Are these different lengthwise? I may send it out to a reputable tanfo smith rather than have my local one make a mess of it, he's ambitious but experience with these pistols would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 18, 2012 Author Share Posted November 18, 2012 If you have a Match (4.75" barrel right?) and you plan to use a compensator I don't think the Sprinco you're looking at will be long enough to index the comp. I use a 4.2" guide rod (which should be the same length as your stock guide rod) and a standard length slide (the guide rod sticks out by about a quarter inch); since you have a longslide model, you'll need a guide rod about 4.5" long to stick out of your slide and into the comp. The V12 Gold Team (current model) is listed as having a 5.25" barrel, but it utilizes a standard length slide (like one for a 4.5" barrel), so the same guide rod used on the longslide would extend into the comp. My suggestion would be to have the smith who cuts/threads/recrowns your 6" barrel make a guiderod to fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugiv Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) Alright sounds like a plan, thanks for the info. I'll ask around to see if i can get a custom one made for the right length. Edited November 19, 2012 by Dugiv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vous Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Success! It is confirmed, the thread pitch for Tanfoglio small frame is M14X0.75, unconfirmed, but highly suspected is that the thread pitch for Tanfoglio large frame is M15X0.75. If it helps I can confirm the thread on my large frame .45ACP is M15x1.0 but the thread on my large frame 38 Super isn't and it isn't M14x0.75 either!!!. I suspect the factory may use different threads for large and small frames but also on different calibres in the same frame size. Confusing???? YES!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I can confirm the thread on my large frame .45ACP is M15x1.0 but the thread on my large frame 38 Super isn't and it isn't M14x0.75 either!!! WOW! so the .45 has a factory comp and threaded barrel? Is your .38 super threaded M15X0.75? is that one a factory barrel/thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vous Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 WOW! so the .45 has a factory comp and threaded barrel? Is your .38 super threaded M15X0.75? is that one a factory barrel/thread? Yes, factory comp and threaded barrel!! One of the reasons I bought it many moons ago because it was something a bit unusual. The 38 Super isn't M15 as the .45ACP comp slides on and off it, the comp diameter is too big for the barrel, while my 9mm small frame comp seems to be about the correct diameter but when I try it on the 38 Super it won't screw on! I haven't checked the pitch of the threads on the Super barrel so will have a look tonight and post it. I suspect the factory have some sort of system where the barrel diameter and thread is different for various models and calibres. Either that or I just happen to have some weird sized barrels/comps!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NESanders311 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Not sure anyone is still watching this thread but wanted to ask anyway. Can anyone tell me if the CZ tactical sport barrel will work with my full size large frame polymer witness 9mm? Seems the perfect length for threading and adding a compensator if it will fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted May 14, 2013 Author Share Posted May 14, 2013 Not without a new crown. The large frame Witness barrels have an OD of 15mm, the small frame Witnesses have an OD of 14mm like the CZ, but the CZ has a little nub above the breech and a slightly different peanut shape on the bottom lug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NESanders311 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Thanks for the info. Frustrating trying to find a barrel and comp combo for my full size large frame 9mm... Without a competent gunsmith around town im wondering if it will be possible. I was thinking about opening up the barrel hole on my slide and threading the barrel for a cone style but im not sure that will work either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NESanders311 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I did put calipers on my barrel this past weekend and if I remember correct it was like .551 or so which is pretty under 15mm, and almost exactly 14mm. I will check again wednesday when I get back home... but I guess it doesn't matter with the other differences. Back to square 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted May 14, 2013 Author Share Posted May 14, 2013 Sanders, if it's .550" that's a small frame, do the mags interchange with a CZ?Send me a PM with some pictures and the details of what you want, I think I can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 you can definitely have a cone comp fitted to it, I have an old P9 that has a cone comp on it. I would have a competent smith do that work but it would fix the search or a new barrel. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NESanders311 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Pm sent. Cant attach the picture I have on my phone as it is abit too large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NESanders311 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Mike, do you think opening up the end of the slide and attaching a cone to the barrel would allow too much play on blowback? I feel like im thinking way to hard about this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I'm not sure what you mean by play on blow back? what I know from the cone comp I have is the comp is threaded to the barrel and the largest part of the cone is a snug fit in the enlarged barrel hole once the slide and barrel unlock the barrel just sort of hangs there by the lug but it doesn't flop around or anything. if it makes you feel any better the factory open, limited and stock 1 and 2 pistols all use a cone type barrel. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NESanders311 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 (edited) Awesome. That seems like a pretty decent way to go about this... and I can use my stock barrel which is even better. Any suggestions on a cone style comp? Need to check my OD to exactly sure of what threads I can get toI suppose. THanks a bunch for the help and info. When I get back around the house I will try to get a picture down to a size I can post to show you what im working with. Nate Edited May 14, 2013 by NESanders311 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 Nate, if you have a large frame gun a cone comp is doable, but if you have a small frame nothing off the shelf will work, it will have to be custom. Please believe me, this is a long, expensive road to go down (ask me how I know...). Do you reload? If not you should know most comp designs are less than impressive with factory ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NESanders311 Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I do reload. Going to hopefully be able to mic my barrel tonight. Any other sure ways to tell the difference between frames if I cant get my calipers from my old man this evening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 Any other sure ways to tell the difference between frames I used to think the long hammer spring down the back of the grip was a dead giveaway (small frame), until I bought a small frame Mossad with a short, transverse hammer spring. I really have no idea about the poly guns since I've never seen one in person. The large frame mags measure 1.345" x 0.850" and the small frame mags measure 1.250" x 0.800" (although that doesn't do you much good without the calipers either). You don't have a CZ75 lying around do you? Small frame mags will fit in the CZ, large frame won't. If you took a picture of the gun and the mag then posted it here, I'll bet one of us could pick it out. So is the object of this project to make your poly into an Open gun (with optics)? or just a compensated range toy? How much are you planning to spend on it? I only ask because I have well over a thousand dollars into turning this: into this: and I'm still not completely satisfied with the comp. But something like this can be done relatively cheeply: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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