ErikW Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I'll just cut to the chase: Is the IPSC 15th Edition's rule about shooters who fail to visit the chronograph (5.6.6.11?) specifically addressing a deficiency in the 14th Edition 2001? Today I had a shooter who failed to visit the chronograph and left the range. Logic says he should not shoot for score. The 15th says he shall not be scored. The 14th-2001 does not provide a consequence for a shooter not getting chronographed. Not that I, nor the RM (a NROI CRO who was a nationals RM), nor the chronoman could find in serious searching. We decided there was nothing we could do other than to let his declared Major stand unopposed. (His departure was in no way an unsportsmanlike avoidance of the chrono. I let him make up stages he missed when he took his kid to the E.R. in the morning.) 5.6.6.3 is really the wrong tool for the job. You gotta love the peanut gallery.... "Just make him Minor" was the consensus. Some people just don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Erik, I don't find at the moment the whole documentation, but we had a similar issue last year during an italian league match: a competitor (required by the RO to report to the chrono) didn't show up. In our case, we DQed the competitor on the grounds of (IPSC) rule 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible. In our case, the unsportsmanlike conduct was reinforced by the fact that the same competitor declared he wouldn't have reported to the chrono purposedly. As a general rule, I guess if a competitor fails to report to the chrono, the issue shall be treated as if a competitor is not able to re-shoot a stage when lawfully asked to do so (e.g. he has already left the range): for that stage he'll be scored zero (2.3.3.3). Applying this to the chrono stage, it means he'll shoot for fun (or for no score). I might be wrong, but I seem to remember having discussed (privately) this incident with Vince, and his conclusions were on line with above reported ones. Vince, would you chime in and refresh my memory? I haven't yet taken my pills for Alzheimer today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Is the IPSC 15th Edition's rule about shooters who fail to visit the chronograph (5.6.6.11?) specifically addressing a deficiency in the 14th Edition 2001? Yes. I deals conclusively with an issue which has not been previously addressed in the rules. Rule 5.6.3.10 very clearly makes it a case of "No chrono, no score". I take it you are in support of the subject rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Rule 5.6.3.10 very clearly makes it a case of "No chrono, no score". Next time: , , , and... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 To summarize: 1. competitor left, match organizers lost score sheet for regular stage -> zero stage? 2. competitor left, match organizers lost score sheet for chrono stage -> no-score match? "Competitor left early" is not an uncommon scenario here in the US with competitors shooting only 1 day of a multi-day match (in fact, most major matches here seem to have finally gotten the message and now offer this format). There is sometimes no way the stats crew can have all scores entered when a competitor leaves. One stage zeroed he can probably grudgingly accept, but travel there for no score because someone lost his chrono record? Pretty nasty... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 To summarize:1. competitor left, match organizers lost score sheet for regular stage -> zero stage? 2. competitor left, match organizers lost score sheet for chrono stage -> no-score match? "Competitor left early" is not an uncommon scenario here in the US with competitors shooting only 1 day of a multi-day match (in fact, most major matches here seem to have finally gotten the message and now offer this format). There is sometimes no way the stats crew can have all scores entered when a competitor leaves. One stage zeroed he can probably grudgingly accept, but travel there for no score because someone lost his chrono record? Pretty nasty... --Detlef Detlef If the organizers lose a sheet for the chrono it is not the same thing. The rule reads: 5.6.3.10 The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a match official, will be removed from the match results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 If the organizers lose a sheet for the chrono it is not the same thing. The rule reads: How does someone in the stats shack know the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 If the organizers lose a sheet for the chrono it is not the same thing. The rule reads: How does someone in the stats shack know the difference? How does someone in the stats shack know that said competitor had to show up to the chrono? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 1. competitor left, match organizers lost score sheet for regular stage -> zero stage? No Sir, unless there was only an original (i.e. no competitor copy). If the Match Organisers lose an original, the first thing to do is ask to see the competitor's copy. Only if both scoresheets are lost would there be a problem. This is because, well, (Darth kicking himself and screaming "How the #&%#$ hell did we miss this???"), we don't actually have a rule to deal with "both scoresheets lost". I've yet to see this happen but, dammit, I guess we must consider the (remote) possibility. Neil? What sayeth thou?: (Draft) Rule 9.7.7: In the event that an original scoresheet is lost, the competitor's duplicate copy will be used. If the competitor's copy is also lost or deemed by the Range Master to be insufficiently legible, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire. If the Range Master deems that a reshoot is not possible for any reason, the competitor will incur a zero time and score for the affected course of fire. POSTSCRIPT: Before someone yells at me, hurts my feelings, and says "How come if Stats and the competitor lose the same scoresheet, the competitor is the only guy who might suffer with a zero for stage?", consider a World Shoot. Each competitor only needs to worry about 35 scoresheets passed directly to him. Stats needs to worry about 28,000 scoresheets, delivered to them by The Relay Team (at a club match, the numbers might be 6 and 240, but you catch my drift, yes?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 How does someone in the stats shack know that said competitor had to show up to the chrono? They keep their own records, and this is usually based on the competitor list in numerical order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Vince, mine was a rather provocative question. The fact is that you're thinking to major matches, where EVERYBODY is "sentenced" to the chrono stage. But in most local minor and not-so-minor matches, it's the RM or some smart ROs that randomly (?) pick rounds for chrono verification from competitors. If RM or said ROs don't file a list and pass it to the stats guy, he'll never know someone missed to show up at the chrono: the only one knowing it is the Chrono guy who still has a small bag of bullets in his hands with (hopefully) a tag on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 If RM or said ROs don't file a list and pass it to the stats guy, he'll never know someone missed to show up at the chrono: the only one knowing it is the Chrono guy who still has a small bag of bullets in his hands with (hopefully) a tag on. Well then, by jove, there's your answer!! Chronodude has a little bag of bullets from Competitor 86, but none of them have been fired yet. Hmmmm. "Ohhh, Range Master". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Well then, by jove, there's your answer. It depends... ya know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 HEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! Leave the Rules Committee photo out of this, OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Vince, Often, only the larger matches use duplicate score sheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Maybe the competitor's records to verify the posted scores could come in handy this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 1. competitor left, match organizers lost score sheet for regular stage -> zero stage? No Sir, unless there was only an original (i.e. no competitor copy). If the Match Organisers lose an original, the first thing to do is ask to see the competitor's copy. Only if both scoresheets are lost would there be a problem. This is because, well, (Darth kicking himself and screaming "How the #&%#$ hell did we miss this???"), we don't actually have a rule to deal with "both scoresheets lost". I've yet to see this happen but, dammit, I guess we must consider the (remote) possibility. Neil? What sayeth thou?: (Draft) Rule 9.7.7: In the event that an original scoresheet is lost, the competitor's duplicate copy will be used. If the competitor's copy is also lost or deemed by the Range Master to be insufficiently legible, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire. If the Range Master deems that a reshoot is not possible for any reason, the competitor will incur a zero time and score for the affected course of fire. POSTSCRIPT: Before someone yells at me, hurts my feelings, and says "How come if Stats and the competitor lose the same scoresheet, the competitor is the only guy who might suffer with a zero for stage?", consider a World Shoot. Each competitor only needs to worry about 35 scoresheets passed directly to him. Stats needs to worry about 28,000 scoresheets, delivered to them by The Relay Team (at a club match, the numbers might be 6 and 240, but you catch my drift, yes?). Vince/All My recollection of why we introduced this rule was to tackle competitors who deliberately avoided the Chrono. I thought at least one specific incident was quoted. I'm not too fired up about penalising competitors who innocently miss being chronoed. I supported 5.6.3.10 when it was first discussed and I support it now but I have to say that if anything I would now be in favour of softening it a little so that if a competitor was called away urgently and providing the RM was properly advised then I would waive the absoluteness of the rule. I agree that we should refer to the competitors duplicate chrono sheet (if one exists) if the original is lost but surely we can do that anyway? I would prefer us to proceed as follows: If scheduled for chrono and no show then 5.6.3.10 unless there is an EXCEPTIONAL reason. If original sheet is lost then use competitors copy if one exists. If no original and no duplicate then chrono again if poss. If not poss then use competitors declared factor. If competitor isn't scheduled to be chronoed for some reason then use their declared factor. To summarise: Lets come down hard on those that deliberately avoid the chrono otherwise use all reasonable endeavours to establish a chrono result if possible otherwise go with the competitors declaration. Or have I missed something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 well, good responses thus far, and the ones I had hoped for. Yet: 1. For now the rule stands as somewhat competitor-hostile as it reads. A clarification via the FAQ may be in place, and a revision along the lines that Neil proposed. 2. As a malicious competitor who declares major and shoots minor, or declares minor and shoots subminor, I can surely arrange to be *urgently called home* or the like. Just keep that in mind...(although I wouldn't make it the focus of a future rule revision, the vast vast majority of shooters is honest after all). Neils proposal appears like a very good starting point, reverting to *as declared* when all else fails, as opposed to *no score* as is (?) currently the case! It also appears as though a traditional DQ is supported under no circumstances. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 FYI, competitor says to me Sunday AM, "I missed three morning stages because my son had an asthma attack and I was in the E.R." I say, "Shoot through by tacking yourself on to the end of the squads." Sunday PM I say, "Did you shoot stages 8, 9, and 1?" He says, "Yes." I say, "So you're all finished?" He says, "Yes." Except he didn't shoot stage 2, the chrono. After much fruitless research, we decided to let his power factor stand as declared. (And I had the great idea of examining the 15th trying to cross-ref back to the 14th, which pretty much made it obvious the 15th was filling the 14th's hole. Rules committee done good!) If I would have had information indicating he had intentionally skipped the chrono I would have filled out another DQ form for unsportsmanlike conduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 To summarise: Lets come down hard on those that deliberately avoid the chrono otherwise use all reasonable endeavours to establish a chrono result if possible otherwise go with the competitors declaration. Agreed, this is a simple fix: 5.6.3.10 Unless exempted by the Range Master, the scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a match official, will be removed from the match results. Or have I missed something? Slightly, but only because (as usual) we've got two topics going here! We can deal with failing to chrono above, but the other issue which has arisen is the possibility that both scoresheets get lost, and for that I think we need the following for consistency from match to match (restated to save page flipping): (Draft) Rule 9.7.7: In the event that an original scoresheet is lost, the competitor's duplicate copy will be used. If the competitor's copy is also lost or deemed by the Range Master to be insufficiently legible, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire. If the Range Master deems that a reshoot is not possible for any reason, the competitor will incur a zero time and score for the affected course of fire. Are we there yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 where is the *lost chrono score sheet* then covered? --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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