Why is it unsafe to point an empty gun at someone?

[dv8]

...  Why would anyone assume that a bagged gun is unloaded with the hammer down on an empty chamber?  Why couldn't the gun just as easily be hot?  Or have one or more of it's safety mechanisms disabled so that it doesn't make much of a jostle to make the hammer drop?

...

Nick,

I see your point and agree for the most part - especially with the "polite" part. And I don't see any reason to argue, I only want to point at the fact that there is no way to make gun handling absolutely safe. Somewhere you will have to make an assumption that certain rules are being followed, that there is no foul play or intent on anyone's part, and we are actually clear and safe. I, or anybody else, can come up with countless scenarios how things may go wrong, and countless ways to prevent things from going wrong. It actually is a common process in the safety and/or mission critical engineering, where you would take certain steps to block most dangerous paths, and declare the others a "negligible risk" or a "training issue". Again, you never really know if that young sailor will follow all the safety rules while servicing a launcher or something, but if we can never assume that the guy knows what he is doing, how would ever a single missile be launched?

That's why I asked before if you or anyone else actually seen an AD out of a bag. If so, then we have a precedent and may want to come up with a new safety rule. If not - then in this particular case we might just choose to trust in each other's honesty and common sense. And of course, nothing stands in your, mine, or anyone else's way to be as polite to each other as we'd like to be.

[rhino]

Which way do you point your gun rug when you carry your gun through your apartment with neighbors above, below, and on either side?

[warpspeed]

About 1998 I took an NRA gun safety course. One of the questions I asked was how reliable safeties were on modern firearms. The instructors answer came in the form of a question: "Would you feel comfortable with me pointing a loaded gun at you safety (ies) applied, and pulling the trigger?" Hmmmm, point made.

Yeah. No SH!T, Point made.

[Neil Beverley]

That's why I asked before if you or anyone else actually seen an AD out of a bag. If so, then we have a precedent and may want to come up with a new safety rule. If not - then in this particular case we might just choose to trust in each other's honesty and common sense.    And of course, nothing stands in your, mine, or anyone else's way to be as polite to each other as we'd like to be. 

I have twice witnesed guns being taken out of a bag and found to be loaded when they weren't meant to be. I'm aware of a couple of futher similar incidents.

These were simply stupid mistakes but nevertheless the result is the same a loaded gun.

This SIGNIFICANTLY narrows the redundancy envelope again.

I was taught, very early one, that in accidental shootings there is usually an empty gun involved because if you knew it to be loaded you wouldn't point it at someone and certainly wouldn't pull the trigger.

Guns grow bullets!

Empty guns kill people!

This thread isn't really about (certainly not anymore) whether or not it's OK to pointed a cleared gun at someone, I don't think anyone is in favour of that. This thread is now really about whether it's OK to point a gun at someone when it's in a bag or case.

I think it has proved to be a very interesting and useful discussion.

[Nik Habicht]

... and declare the others a "negligible risk" or a "training issue".

DV8,

We're not arguing. I actually think we're on the same page --- I'm not convinced we need a rule here. I do think that we should use the information in these threads, that Neil so helpfully started, to reevaluate, on a personal level, how we handle bagged guns. Sort of the same way, that I reevaluate how I drive on snow and ice, when I do it again after a couple of winters with nearly no snowfall....

And I think we need to keep this in mind, to pass it along if you will, when we have an opportunity to train others --- be they experienced shooters or newbies asking questions....

And no --- I've never witnessed an incident --- Neil just got me to thinking about the fact that I might not have always treated cased and uncased guns alike, in terms of observing muzzle direction....

[Nik Habicht]

Which way do you point your gun rug when you carry your gun through your apartment with neighbors above, below, and on either side?

Rhino,

I got into guns after I got into houses. My safe however is situated in such a way that you can pass around all four sides of it while moving around the house --- which presents the problem of always knowing where the other occupants of the house are prior to handling guns....

Not that houses would stop bullets any better than apartments....

[Nik Habicht]

About 1998 I took an NRA gun safety course.  One of the questions I asked was how reliable safeties were on modern firearms.  The instructors answer came in the form of a question:  "Would you feel comfortable with me pointing a loaded gun at you safety (ies) applied, and pulling the trigger?" Hmmmm, point made.

Yeah. No SH!T, Point made.

Warp,

yeah, that was pretty much my reaction. The class got quite a chuckle out of that answer....

Cool sig line by the way....

[Neil Beverley]

Nik

Your posts on this subject have been excellent. And that's not intended to take anything away from anyone else.

This thread has always intended to get the subject on the table, and actively discussed. What people do with the information is going to be largely up to them.

I believe everyone should set their own safety standards (outside the rule book). Set them high and be proud of them.

Nobody ever got killed because someone was too safe!

Nik has also raised an interesting topic with regards to carrying guns in houses. I teach, particularly for long guns and as a general rule, muzzle down if downstairs and muzzle up if upstairs. But more importantly, as Nik has very aptly pointed out, be aware. In an apartment it's a toughie.

I have seen some folk, who are usually very safety conscious, point guns at doors and at windows, with either the curtains or blinds closed, and totally unthinking about the possible activity behind. They can't see a problem so one doesn't exist. Ostriches! In some ways a little similar to the other dicussions here about guns in bags, but arguable worse because the guns are actually being handled.

I know! Multiple redundancy and I agree with the concept. I also agree with the "More Safe / Less Safe concept" . I just prefer "More Safe" every time.

[Neil Beverley]

I think it's a good time to borrow some text that is buried at the bottom of one of Jim Normans's posts:

True story, I had a DOD Security guy come to a match with his Glock. He was borrowing a holster for the match and also needed a Safety Check. Since it was raining we decided to do the initial verbal part in the sign-up trailer and also to declare the trailer table as a Safe Table for the sole purpose of confirming that his borrowed holster would work. Imagine my surprize when I racked the slide back on his G17 and a round popped out. At that point I also ejected the fully loaded magazine. A valid case in point why you always treat every gun as loaded. NEVER ASSUME!

[dv8]

I consider myself to be a very much safety oriented person when it comes to gun handling, so I don't want to advocate lesser safety in any way. I too think that we are on the same page for the most part and the only disagreement there (if any) is in the philosophical aspect of redundant safety, and I am OK with this.

What's important is that we are talking about safety issues, we are thinking about it, and we are enforcing safety rules on ourselves and newcomers. This makes me feel safe enough to bring my son or my girlfriend to watch a match and eventually join us. And I feel safe being around fellow shooters. As Mr. Brown says - I feel GOOD!