Neil Beverley Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 As an spin off from the "To DQ one, both, or none, Another brainteaser" thread I'll pose another scenario based on a conversation I recently heard. If a gun is cleared and checked by an RO and the hammer has been dropped to further prove that the gun is empty, why is it considered unsafe to point an empty and theoretically safe gun at someone else? Why does it matter? Is it really so unsafe? I know my thoughts on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 If I look into the barrel of a gun not in my hands while cleaning, but in the hands of another - if I know it to be empty or not - I will probably clobber that person with whatever I can get hold of . No Q's asked - if that guy wants to be treated like an a**wipe, I will be happy to help So yes - it is unsafe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Consider that we treat all guns as always loaded. Therefore even though I just personally verified thart the gun is empty, I still treat it as loaded. Why? Because if you do otherwise, someday, somewhere, someone will make a mistake and the gun WILL BE LOADED and then there will be Blood, Sweat and Tears. NEVER POINT A FIREARM AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT WISH TO DESTROY ALL FIREARMS ARE ALWAYS LOADED No more need be said. My opinion and yes I intended to say it loudly Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Neil, I'll throw in my 2c worth. Pointing an empty gun to someone is not an intrinsically unsafe action per se, it's more an educational matter to me. Sort of being rude or impolite: "I don't give a damn about your feelings, I know the gun is empty and safe, I'm not endangering your life, thus I can do it...". BUT, there are the intrinsic implications this act can have. Apart from the possible (mis?)interpretation of this act as an offense or a threat, what we try to teach, to everyone who comes in contact with firearms, is that all guns are always loaded (or have to be treated as such); would you imagine the detriment in terms of gun handling that the situation you depicted could have? Somehow it could get ingrained into someone's mind that the act of pointing an empty gun at someone is not dangerous, thus no need to think about it, no need to double check the gun, no need to pay attention to the action in itself, until a gun proves not to be empty... As someone else already said "I don't want to be there". We all want to raise the common level of gun handling skills, not lower it by allowing some light-minded manipulation of a gun on the basis it's empty. When dealing with potentially dangerous tools and situations we want to keep all the safety measures that are possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Because it violates two sacred rules: 1) All guns are loaded!!! 2) Do not point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy!!! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Wow!!!...a triple simultaneous post!!! Boy, we jumped all over that one!!!! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 We need a lot less rules & a lot more common sense. Most of the people in the forum have a lot of common sense. A few of the people I run across in the local matches don't have any at all. The rules are written for the stupid sh*ts who show up at matches and don't have a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 The problem is that many of those sh*ts don't care 'bout the rules - if you point a gun at me on the range, you should be internationally, publically expeled from IPSC, if you do it any where else, ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 On a lighter side: looks like pointing an empty gun to someone is not as unsafe for the pointed as it will probably be for the pointer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 1) All guns are loaded!!!2) Do not point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy!!! This pretty much sums it up. I think one of the main reasons for this is that the price of a mistake can be very costly and cannot be undone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Speaking as someone who has had dozens of "unloaded" firearms pointed at them, it is unsafe b/c EVERY GUN IS CONSIDERED LOADED!!! First rule of firearm safety. That is why the chamber flags for firearms are a bad idea. The whole premise of the flag - that the gun is unloaded - goes against Rule #1 and leads to complacency. -David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Experienced shooters (like forum members and such) DO know how to handle firearms safely for the most part. But when a newbie comes along, has a serious interest in shooting, etc., we whip out the very basic rules and lovingly instill them so they don't kill themselves (or someone else) in the first 48 hours... or the first 48 days... or whatever. Train the brain with simple safety and you have a safe shooter from the start. And accidents DO HAPPEN. But they can be avoided. Moreover, it's not only the safe thing to do it's the respectable thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Pointing an empty gun to someone is not an intrinsically unsafe action per se, it's more an educational matter to me. Moreover, it's not only the safe thing to do it's the respectable thing to do. Looks like we had the same education... ...no wonder since you're half italian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 OK Niel, you asked the Q and stated that you have your ideas....why and what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 What we have is a habit/process that is both a Rule and part of Etiquette. The Rule is, we check to make sure we have an indeed, unloaded, firearm. And we then still treat it as if it were loaded to maintain good habits. The chamber flag is simply a visible declaration to all that "This rifle/shotgun has been chacked, and is unloaded." That declaration does not remove you from the Rule covering proper treatment and handling: "they are all loaded." The Etiquette is simply, that I have enough respect for you as an individual that I will not carelessly sweep you with an unloaded firearm, even if it is flagged. To do so is to declare by action that I deem you unworthy of the respect of handling my firearm in a safe manner. I.E., you are no more worthy to me than that berm over there. There are times when you change the rules. In a sterile environment (no ammo even in the room) in training, with triple-checked and chamber flagged firearms, we'll train on tactics. But even then you're expected to not sweep your team mates as you stack and go through the door. There are no such times to be found in a USPSA/IPSC match. By the way, Ido not like the DCM blocks that simply block the magazine well and keep the aciton open. I much prefer a block that actually enters the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I was shooting an indoor match and was cleared by the RO and I looked in the chamber but when told hammer down the gun went bang. A round had hung up somehow and chambered when I released the slide. Ka ka occurs even when you think everything is okay, That's why we keep our fingers off the trigger, keep the muzzle down range, assume the gun is loaded and we do not point a gun at something we are not willing to destroy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Why is it unsafe? Because I'll beat the crap out of you for pointing a gun at me. When I spent a lot of time at our regular member ranges, it seemed like being swept was a daily thing. The rifle range was the worst, especially when the once-a-year shooters show up just prior to deer season. At those times I have no idea if the gun is loaded or unloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Well, the ol' Catholic education taught us reciprocal respect if nothing else. I bet they never guessed how well it'd serve me in the world of firearms. AND... 'Better safe than sorry' really applies here, too. It's hard to beat respect AND common sense in one package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Skywalker and Mr. Sweeney (and others) are on the right track ... you can't afford to develop a "habit" where it's okay under some circumstances to point a gun at someone and not others. At some point, that will lead to carelessness and tragedy. The Four Rules are redundant for a reason. People are ... human ... and prone to mistakes. You can afford to break one or maybe even two ACCIDENTALLY as long as the other rules are obeyed ... if not, then you're going to have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 In a *literal* sense, it's not unsafe to point an unloaded firearm at anything. The problem is that if one does so, sooner or later that "unloaded" firearm will turn out to be a loaded firearm and that is unsafe. Therefore, we have the rule that all firearms are treated as if they are always loaded and by a transitivity argument, based on that and the axiom (obvious) that pointing a loaded firearm at someone is unsafe, we have a proof that "It is unsafe to point an empty gun at someone". [QED] Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Where's Dr. Winkler when we need him? It's called common courtesy. It's what we do as cultured, dignified human beings when we interact with one another. It's a culture that goes back at least as far as the knightly custom of the handshake - a symbol between two parties that both are unarmed and come to act as gentlemen (or ladies as the case may be). Anything less is beneath our dignity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted July 12, 2004 Author Share Posted July 12, 2004 So ………… There seems to be a consensus, in the main, that we should treat all firearms as if they are loaded. Jeff and Jim state the case best of all: 1) All guns are loaded!!!2) Do not point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy!!! Good sound practice. I concur, completely. Moving on …….. We also state in this thread that a loaded gun in a gun slip or case is unacceptable. Dajarrel: I don't like the idea of a hypothetical loaded gun on the range- bagged or not.Jim: The safety on or off makes no difference. Why is the competitor carrying his SG in this manner and as already been asked, why would we consider this different from a loaded pistol in a case To summarise: 1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded 2. It is not acceptable to point a loaded gun at someone (even if it is in a slip or case) Very interesting! The practice in reality is somewhat in conflict with the combined conclusions above. There are some people, some entire Regions, who frequently carry long guns horizontally in cases, and I daren’t even further discuss the generally accepted practices for handguns when in cases or gloves or range bags. It’s quite contradictory to the feelings in the combined threads. How many people routinely point a gun, that should be treated as if loaded, at something they aren't willing to destroy, while carrying it around in a case, slip, glove or range bag? Just a thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 why is it considered unsafe to point an empty and theoretically safe gun at someone else? Why does it matter? Is it really so unsafe? I would say it is unsafe 'cause the peson at the business end of the gun might not realize the gun is unloaded and react accordingly with a gun that is loaded. If the gun is in a case it poses no imediate threat and the trigger is not easiely activated, thus it is "safer." Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Finally, then, ask YOURSELF: Would you like someone to point a gun at YOU...? My answer is, "Hell, no." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Neil: I agree with you about the issue of pointing guns in the wrong direction while guns are in a case or range bag. It does seem to be a little awkward. There are 2 other rules that go along with the 2 discussed: 1) Every gun is loaded 2) KEEP YOUR FING OFF OF THE TRIGGER UNTIL READY TO FIRE 3) Don't point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy 4) BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT LIES BEYOND It takes breaking 3 of these 4 rules to get someone hurt, and transport in a bag breaks 3 - 1, 3, and 4. However, I can't come up with a practical way out of it. Short of disassembly when a gun goes into a case (when disassebled, it is no longer a gun), there's no other way to address it. Question is, do we have much of a problem with the case AD? I have not heard of any, and I don't see people writing about it. Problems seem to happen when the gun is coming from the case, to the case (or in between). So at this point, I'm willing to accept things and go on, but I'm not happy about it. I am very aware of muzzle direction when the gun is in case and try to manage that as well. I also want to underscore that this is a "habits" issue. If you maintain good habits, you will be safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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