bbbean Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 +1 to zeroing off hand rather than from a rest, at least with the pistol. But this does not seem practical past 20 yards? I know some bullseye shooters can hit the X with some reliability at 25 yards using iron sights and one hand, but not only are they really good at what they do, it does not seem very practical to anyone past that distance? 25-50 yard targets aren't uncommon in USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge, or NRA Action Pistol matches and silhouette shooters extend that distance substantially. You need to be able to shoot a head shot off hand at 25 yards, even if you have to slow down to do so, and hitting the A zone at 35-50 yards can be the difference between doing well and tanking a match. If this seems like an impossible task beyond 25 yards, you may have a grip/trigger/visual patience issue. Ask me how I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Just came back to edit to add that what I mean by "off hand" is without support, not one handed, in case I was unclear. When it comes to filing, it doesn't take much. But again, I wouldn't do that until absolutely every other option has been exhausted. If you can, get ahold of some 147gr 9mm and try the zero at the same distances just to see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I zero all of them for 50 ft. Edited March 18, 2012 by TonyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) What I consider a "decent" group for what we do is fist sized (unsupported metric headshot @ 25). Circles are my match load - triangles aren't. POA is the brown arrow on the tip of the front sight. From a rest, my POI changes by a few inches depending on where I put pressure on the frame/slide. Pistol is a 2011 shooting 4.2gr S1000 w/ 115gr bullets: You'll get to a point where your sights aren't precise enough to get POA/POI. One click will move you too much but in the case above - that's acceptable. Edited March 18, 2012 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) If you sight in from rest, and your gun hits low and or to the side when you switch to of hand.. Then then you more than likely have a timming problem.. This has been my experiance.. I sight at 15 yards from rest... I draw my own targets so I can adjust my windage and hight perfectly at that distance. (I use a horizontal bar 1 inch thick for hight and a vertical 1 inch bar for windage) When I shoot of hand at the same distance the only thing that changes is the size of my group.. I spend allot of time working on accuracy, and is taken me a long time, to learn the timing of my gun.. If the gun is hitting low and to the side just low when am shooting of hand I know I need to get back out to the range and do some timing drills Edited March 18, 2012 by carlosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I also disagree that when sighting you don't need a small group.. If the group you are shooting is any bigger than the size of your front sight at the distance you are engaging, then how the heck do you ever call a shot at that distance? Edited March 18, 2012 by carlosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I also disagree that when sighting you don't need a small group.. My opinion is that you don't need a small group - however, it must be repeatable and you must be able to find the center. If the group you are shooting is any bigger than the size of your front sight at the distance you are engaging, then how the heck do you ever call a shot at that distance? Easy - to me, calling the shot involves only the sights and not actual ballistics. As a multigun shooter that spent time shooting in limited - I'll say that a number of targets were smaller than my sighting mechanism. Let's suppose that my rifle, sighting mechanism, and ammunition are exactly 4 MOA capable 100% of the time. Let's also suppose that my front sight was a size that could match the width of a 4MOA target at a given distance. Heck, lets say that the target was half the width of the front sight. My preference to zero is in theory - to have the tip of the front sight bisect the diameter of the bullet. That's why I only sight in on "V" shaped targets since no other target allows you to precisely "eyeball" a point. Not many folks can precisely align circles within circles and squares within squares. Nearly everyone knows what the tip of a sharp edge looks like. A shot can be properly called many miles away but the shooter is unlikely to hit it if it is beyond the effective range of the firearm. Edited March 18, 2012 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Sure thing brotha, If your shooting head shoots a 25 yards constantly then you are probably within 3 inches, that's really good As far as ballistics go, i don't think this matters that much when shooting pistol.. If you are worried about hold overs in limited your probably shooting way to slow.. So the best you can do is make sure that where ever you put the front sight thats where the bullet hits.. Inside of 35 yards trajectory of a discent load is preaty straight.. If that's not happening and it's a limitation of the firearm and not the shooter then the shooter should probably get a better firearm Shooting rifle long range is a different beast than shooting pistol inside of 35 yards.. In my opinion it's a totally different context than the one in the op question.. Edited March 18, 2012 by carlosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I also disagree that when sighting you don't need a small group.. My opinion is that you don't need a small group - however, it must be repeatable and you must be able to find the center. +1 Maybe it's just a difference in definition of terms. I'm talking purely about finding the gun's zero, not shooting for accuracy. If I'm shooting for accuracy, then obviously a smaller group is better than a larger group. When looking for a gun's zero, let's say that I theoretically shoot three 10 shot groups, and each of those ten shot groups make a perfectly round blob that is 4" round at 10 yards in the same spot on each of the three targets. None of the groups were great, but the center of each group is my gun's zero. Now, looking a those groups and trying to figure out the accuracy issue is something else. Was it me the shooter? Was it the gun? Was it the ammunition? Was it a combination of two or all three? I'm just rambling now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I also disagree that when sighting you don't need a small group.. My opinion is that you don't need a small group - however, it must be repeatable and you must be able to find the center. +1 Maybe it's just a difference in definition of terms. I'm talking purely about finding the gun's zero, not shooting for accuracy. If I'm shooting for accuracy, then obviously a smaller group is better than a larger group. When looking for a gun's zero, let's say that I theoretically shoot three 10 shot groups, and each of those ten shot groups make a perfectly round blob that is 4" round at 10 yards in the same spot on each of the three targets. None of the groups were great, but the center of each group is my gun's zero. Now, looking a those groups and trying to figure out the accuracy issue is something else. Was it me the shooter? Was it the gun? Was it the ammunition? Was it a combination of two or all three? I'm just rambling now... I know what you mean, execempt There allot of shooters who see a 4inch group at 10 yards and either think that super acurate.. Or they assume the gun is not very acurate.. When the truth is that most modern handgun can shoot inside of an inch at 10 yards with almost any load.. which is the reason why I advice to zero the gun with the smallest pattern you can repeat I shoot 5 shot patterns.. And I don't adjust after every string, only when the patterns tell me I need to adjust I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I know what you mean, execempt There allot of shooters who see a 4inch group at 10 yards and either think that super acurate.. Or they assume the gun is not very acurate.. When the truth is that most modern handgun can shoot inside of an inch at 10 yards with almost any load.. which is the reason why I advice to zero the gun with the smallest pattern you can repeat I shoot 5 shot patterns.. And I don't adjust after every string, only when the patterns tell me I need to adjust I Agreed with all of that! I've also found that most handguns with fixed sights that I've shot (including my 60 year old Hi-Standard) need no adjustment for the average shooter-- it behooves the factories to sight their guns in properly and they do a pretty good job of it. Edited March 18, 2012 by jkrispies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_Vmax Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I zero at 20 yards and check point of impact at 5, 10 and 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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