D.Hayden Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Jeez.. I didn't think it sounded that bad... Why won't it burn when wet? Where's a good place to find out basic stuff like this... borrowing from someone's sig line... I'm a software engineer not a chemist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 To ignite anything you have to reach the temperature at which it will "flash"...aka "flashpoint". Water retards the increase in temperature because as it evaporates it cools the material it is leaving. Once all the water is gone, the temperature of the material will be able to rise and then it will flash. Of course this is assuming that the flashpoint of "whatever" is higher than the temperature at which water turns to steam. Most gun powder flashes at a temperature considerably higher than 100C. This is a good thing. Think about it. That help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 water will also change the powder chemically irreversibly, although that takes time because it's usually water repellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Thanks Kimel.. ok.. I guess that was obvious thinking about it... bear with me, then I'm done.. I guess what I was asking, based on DetLef's comment, (assuming a chunk big enough, not flakes) if it was already burning, then dropped into water, would it continue to burn, does all the oxygen the gunpowder burns, come from within, or does it need external sources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 water will also change the powder chemically irreversibly, although that takes time because it's usually water repellent. Really? Some of the big powder MFG's store bulk powder under water. There's an Alliant ad (seen in their reloader's guide) with some that's been sitting underwater for almost 100 years and still going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I guess what I was asking, based on DetLef's comment, (assuming a chunk big enough, not flakes) if it was already burning, then dropped into water, would it continue to burn, does all the oxygen the gunpowder burns, come from within, or does it need external sources? Well, considering the burn rate of most powders you would have to be MIGHTY quick to get this into water. My guess, and this ONLY a guess is that it would burn for just a bit but once the water had cooled it enough and saturated the matrix that it would stop. Where is a Physical Chemist when we need one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Powder brings all the oxygen it needs with it. Powder (black or smokeless) will burn in a vaccuum or outer space. There's also no problem firing guns underwater.. A pile of loose powder might or might not burn underwater-- the water might suck up enough heat to stop the flame front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Powder brings all the oxygen it needs with it. Powder (black or smokeless) will burn in a vaccuum or outer space. Very cool... thanks much... I should never have said water, vaccuum much better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 In back to back tests I have had swings of PF from 166.5 ProChrono to 171.5 CED to 173 Oler , only CED matched the chrono used for the match. I have found with the 320 in my 40 loads, I get a PF increase of 1, for each 6 deg.F the temp goes up. Remember you can have a huge temp. swing if your ammo is in the sun vs. shade. The Clays I use in 45 has an even a bigger swing. I get a PF reduction of 3 from a cold barrel to a hot barrel. Altitude will not affect vel. at 5ft. Big change at range. Absolute humidity not relative humidity inside the case will make a change. Many areas with high elevation have very low humidity increasing burn rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 shred, powders can be very different, just like explosives (say, Ammonium Gelites vs. Nitropenta). Some are irreversibly affected by water, others are so high in hydrophobic components that they might not at all. I can assure you that I keep my powders dry, and not under water... We really need someone from Aliant or Vihtavuori on our forum... blkbrd: Absolute humidity not relative humidity inside the case will make a change. Many areas with high elevation have very low humidity increasing burn rate. Any data to solidify this? Short of a loading environment dripping in condensation water, I just doubt you'd see a measurable effect...but I would not exclude it.--Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Gents - The stuff stored underwater is done so to keep air (oxygen) away from it. If you take that stuff out of the water and dry it (bake it, freeze dry it, etc) it will perform. The chemical componets themselves do not soak up the water, the water is held between the granules. Think table salt. It mixes with the water but remove the water and you have the same compund. Chemists call this mixing versus combining. Storing powder under water keeps the air away from Water binds oxygen rather tightly compared to air - things rust faster in damp air than submerged in fresh water. These powders, many others, and many other things (wine...) are sensitive to oxygen in air. geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted July 26, 2004 Author Share Posted July 26, 2004 I'm not putting my powder under water - got enough trouble keeping the stuff away from my guns.... Thanx for the help - I think I'm on the right track now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Please, everyone refrain from submerging/mixing your powders with water, and/or from drying them later on. This can have unpredictable/undesirable and possibly even hazardous consequences. Treat/store them as instructed on the manufacturer's labels. I am closing this thread to avoid more *interesting* proposals and *innovative* chemistry experiments, and because the initial topic was exhaustively discussed. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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