Which rifle to use?

[JP5]

Hey Guys and Gals,

There is a competition next weekend down in NC that I am participating in, but am not sure what rifle to use. It is a 5 to 800 yard competition, with rifle and pistol, real world simulations with adverse angles, off hand shooting, approximate distance, calisthetics and all. I'm not sure what rifle to bring though. I have a 16" 1 in 9 twist AR with a burris MTAC 1-4x and grip pod that I was thinking of bringing, but the BDC is only good to 600 yards. I also have a CETME that has had a decent amount of tweaking done to it that I have a red dot on, but could add a 6-24x scope to that I could bring, though I've never shot it past 100 yards.

I know neither of these are ideal, but the rifle I wanted to buy (700 ps with a super sniper) I had to put on hold due to a family emergency so I am playing with what I got.

I have a 300 yard range that I can practice and sight in at this week.

I know the ar is reliable and sighted in well, and I could figure out the drop from data and sight in at 200 or 300 yards and use the drop data different than the ranges. However, the 1 in 9 barrel means I'll have to use probably 62 or 65 grain bullets, and the 16" puts me at a velocity disadvantage. The CETME is accurate at 100 yards but I'm not sure what it will do beyond that, however being in 308 with a longer barrel should give me an advantage there.

What do y'all recommend?

Thanks in advance.

Jeremy

[ckell101]

The question becomes what size target at 800? If it is fairly sizeable, I would say go with the MTAC and aim high. But, I am going to recommend you not take the 6x out as anything close is going just going to look HUGE and distorted! But if you do, slap some 45 degree iron sights on there and have fun.

[JP5]

Target size is 2-4 MOA. There is one stage at 800ish, one at 400ish, two at 300ish. Recommended round count is 50 for rifle, so 10 rounds per stage. I'm leaning towards the AR at this point, I'll rack up the points on the shorter range stages and do my best at the longer ones. Does anyone have any experience using a 16" at long ranges with an MTAC? Any other recommendations?

Thanks again,

Jeremy

[427Cobra]

First off a AR15 or CETME is a bad choice of weapons for a percision rifle match, as is the sucker bullet drop compensating scope, so my recommendation is to use the AR15, but put another scope on it and forget about the 800 yard targets, be shit hot inside 400, and don't hose down the targets in semi auto, a boltgunner will make hits one shot at a time, semi auto guys tend to miss as fast as they shoot, slow down and make them count.

[lee blackman]

There is a difference between shot bracketing and missing as fast as you pull the trigger. And those sucker bullet compensating scopes are alot faster than dialing the phone. Look at the Brit's going to the L192A1...

You might not get to do it this match but if you plan on shooting regularly I'd sell the AR and the CETME and go with a Noveske, LMT, or POF AR-10 setup. Probably an 16 or 18" barrel length. I would got with a 6x48 Acog. I mean if the Marines can teach Joe S..The Rag Man to qualify open sight at 500 yards open sight, there isn't any reason that you can't learn to hit up to 800 yards with 6x magnification. Just remember the magic handload... 175gr BTHP Nosler or Sierra, with 43.1gr RL-15 Powder... And the new 155gr Palma Bullets look promising.

Bolt action was the assault rifle of 1903... Over years of refinement, we have precision bolt rifles. Now for the Assualt rifle of 1958 is becoming more refined in the precision aspect, and bringing forth its advantages. Faster follow-up shots. Multiple target engagement (time vs accuracy bonus). Its amazing watching your bullet hits thru a magnified optic, quickly adjusting your reticle position and squeezing the next round. As opposed to recovering sight picture thru a super telephoto optic way after the dust already started to settle, adjusting your dials, and manually chambering the next round for the next shot while the guy with the semi-auto is 3 targets ahead of you...

Edited February 12, 2012 by lee blackman

[427Cobra]

My point of view comes from a guy who shoots in percision rifle matches, it would take an exceptional marksmen to win one with a semi auto, bolt guns simply rule this type of a shooting, and the Brits shooting there LMT's do well on 2-3 moa targets, there ammo and scopes are calibrated together, and they have been professionally instructed on how to deal with hitting there targets in different atmospheric conditions. 2-4 moa targets are pretty big, most of these matches I have shot in the targets are 1 moa byeond 400, and 1/2 inside 400 unless there moving, go have fun, learn from the other shooters, and have fun.

[lee blackman]

I'm not telling him to take his AR to a Bench Rest or even a bolt gun competition. He said real-world... Both of which are neither. I was kinda assuming since he was talking about taking his handgun to, that it was going to be more like a 3-gun deal without the shotgun. I'm a bolt-gun guy myself. I'd much rather field my Remy 700 than an AR, but you won't see me bringing it to a 3-gun competition. Unless I just feel like having fun and not really competing with the rest of the player. I mean I thought about breaking out my 8-shot S&W 627 performance center and giving USPSA limited 10 or Open a run, but I think I'll keep it in the safe till I decide to go play the ICORE game...

Oh Jeremy I forgot to meantion, don't assume a longer barrel will give you an accuracy advantage. The CETME is a fun and accurate shooter, but also consider its weight and ease of shooting. If your going to do anything like climb ladders and shoot down from elevated positions or having to carry extra ammo.

My best advise would be take your AR, just go have fun the first match and consider taking advise and learning home as to what you will need if you want to participate in that particular competition again in the future. Nothing is completely real world. Look at IDPA, its a 1911 shooters game. Real world means you bring anything you can to accomplish the job at hand. As soon as you put limits on modifications and capacity and make divisions to make it fair for the rest of the shooters, its just a game, because the real world doesn't have rules and isn't fare

[twodownzero]

I would get a 6.5 grendel upper from Model 1. They're cheaper than you'd think.

[Graham Smith]

I've hit smaller targets at 600yds with an AR15 but you're going to be pushing it at 800, particularly if there is any wind. The big problem is, if you are going to switch sights, you are going to need to be able to take the time to work out the dope for that rifle for that sight. You can ball park it with a ballistics program but that might not be good enough for the longest shots.

With the match coming up next week, I'd say just take the AR if you already have the drops calibrated and just have fun with it. You're not going to win with either rifle so don't worry about it.

BTW, if you've got targets at unknown distances and angles, do you have a way of estimating distance and calculating angles? Many of these tactical matches don't permit laser range finders so if you don't have a mil-dot scope and drop sheet, you are going to have a bigger problem than your rifle.

[lee blackman]

Thats whats great about the acog. As long as you know the width of the target. The bottom of the chevron is 300M, 18" or average width of a mans shoulders. And every tick mark under the line is the same 18" at the marked distance. Having such a wide field of view and just enough magnification you can see your shot and quickly adjust.

[JP5]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the advise, I know the match coming up isn't the typical precision match, but with an 800ish yard stage I thought it fit best. Anyhow, I took the AR with the MTAC out to the 300 yd range, and with 69 grain match prvi partizan ammo was getting about 8" groups at 300 yards laying prone with a grip pod and rear support bag, no key-holing so I think thats going to be the ammo for the twist rate and I'll bring that instead of the cetme, you're guys advise made sense with weight, ergonomics, and poor choice of scope for close in work. The 2 moa center dot worked well, it zero's at 25 yards and 300 yards so I know between that my shots will be high and past 600 yards is going to be a crap shoot for me, I've got the ballistics numbers, but with only 4x of magnification, I'm at a disadvantage. Yeah, distances are approximate, target size is known and laser range finders are prohibited, hell from one stage we have to shoot from a moving platform. I forgot to mention the competition is a team of two event, and my partner is bringing a .308 700 with a 10x SS scope, he has the dope worked out so he is set for the longer range shots and I'll have the advantage with the shorter ones, I don't have high expectations, just to have fun, I've been shooting for years, just recently got into competing.

My list of things to get is long (the ACOG is nice, I've used one before on a military carbine), but I don't plan on waiting to have the ideal setup as it will probably change anyways as I do more and more and plus I won't really focus on one discipline. The nice thing about my AR is it's an MGI hydra with a quick change barrel and magwell, so I can change barrels easily and cheaper, I just won't get a longer barrel and handguard extension in time for the match. Thanks for the help, I'll post results this weekend.

Cheers,

Jeremy

[JP5]

Well, that was one hell of a match. Didn't do too well, not that I expected to do. Long range AR 10's and 15's along with a good amount of bolt actions dominated the match. The 4x wasn't nearly enough, and the BDC in the MTAC, while good, didn't compensate for the lack of magnification. I let my partner take all the shots past 300 yards, but I made a couple myself. I should have zero'd for 100 yards, that would have made some of the shots easier. There was a VTAC barricade that I had a slight advantage with the carbine, but it didn't make up for shooting with the barricade for the first time. I would have done better with a longer barrel, and a higher power midot scope with illuminated reticle and an offset reflex sight. The grippod worked great, the 69 grain prvi partizans worked fine for the shots I made. I need to start going to more matches to get practice for matches like this. BTW, the match was the pasquotank precision rifle match, a fundraiser for cystic fibrosis. Overall, I had a great time, I've got a lot to learn, and some more stuff to buy.

Thanks for the help,

Jeremy

[Graham Smith]

Overall, I had a great time, I've got a lot to learn, and some more stuff to buy.

Here's a couple suggestions. Get another scope to start with but leave it alone other than that. What you need now, more than equipment, is practice. Spend the money on ammunition and range time.

A 50yd zero is still your best option because it's going to give you the best ballistic curve for targets out to 350yds. Past that, you're going to have to adjust your POA regardless of zero setting.

[Nowind0]

Wow, looks like a fun time, and for a good cause. Love to see Shooters gathering for a good cause. We need more of that.