mai Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Vince, My friend has Glock 19C, he want to replace the port-barrel to the normal no-port one. May he use his gun for Production Devision or not ? Is it possible and legal, by Production regulation, for anyone who owned Glock 19 to use glock 17's mag. thanks mai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 My friend has Glock 19C, he want to replace the port-barrel to the normal no-port one. May he use his gun for Production Devision or not? No. The G19 is approved, however the G19C and/or G19 "hybrids" are not approved (i.e. no mix 'n' match). Is it possible and legal, by Production regulation, for anyone who owned Glock 19 to use glock 17's mag. No. Only the standard magazines (without "+" baseplates or other devices) offered by the OFM for a particular model gun on the list are approved. Imagine if we allowed "any Glock magazine which fits" - we'd very quickly see G18 standard 31 round magazines used in G17 pistols! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radagast Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 What would be wrong with that? Apart from your trigger finger getting tired that is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I've seen worse - you can get a belt feeder for a 1911 (and then some!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 But if I would wear such a belt behind my hip bone I would be ok, wouldn't I ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Vince, I'd be interested in hearing what the reasoning is behind not allowing non-ported replacement bbl's in "C" Glocks. If anything, I'd think there'd be, albeit very slight, less weight in the muzzle-end which would be a, albeit very slight, competitive disadvantage. When the notion strikes me, I shoot Production (USPSA) with a G20C with a replacement .40sw bbl. I see this as no different than the G21 ... or even shooting the G20 with light loads. I prefer this setup as I have fairly large hands (XXL) and the G20 seems to fill 'em up more ... and I don't handload and .40sw is a lot cheaper than .45acp and/or 10mm. Also, we just had a match yesterday where a guy was shooting a Glock in Production with a plug ... the SC saw it and recommended to the MD to bump him to Open. The shooter put up a fight citing that there was nothing in the rulebook ... but, someone indicated that it was in the Front Sight mag and that was just as good. Any thoughts? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 To keep it "Production", there has to be a line somewhere..... if having a big milled hole in the top of your slide is ok for the guy shooting a non-ported barrel in a 19C, 17C, or 20C, then why wouldn't it be legal for the guy with a 19, 17, or 20 to just add the port to his gun for a lighter weight slide? Not to mention, to some, having a lightened slide (with a lower # recoil spring) would be perceived as an advantage, not disadvantage. (faster cycling) Throw in a tungsten guide rod to add weight to the nose, use a ported slide with nonported barrel, and a light spring = faster cycling gun with still plenty of weight in the frame or non-reciprocating parts, a possible competitive advantage. I'm guessing this why nonported longslides, and G34s and G35s have "ported" slides, they'd cycle to slow otherwise. On the question about plugs: Yes, it was pointed out in Front Sight (more than once I believe) that the plugs are considered an external modification (or even a magwell enhancing device?), and are illegal for Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mai Posted June 21, 2004 Author Share Posted June 21, 2004 So, the suggection to my friend should be "buy a new G17", right? Law & Rule are something that we always want to bent, distort or cheat. Thanks to all you guys Mai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwalker Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Khun Mai, Yes, I am afraid that your friend might need to go shopping for a "production-approved" G19 or G17. I can't think why he bought a G19C in the first place. I have compared the G19 and the G19C at the range and the difference in recoil lift is not detectable. Plus, the ports make the gun useless for defence - at night the port flash temporarily blinds you... Remind him that, these days, we are also checking trigger weights at the chrono at all matches. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Hi guys, The basic concept in respect of modifications to PD guns is "if it doesn't come that way from the original gun maker, it's prohibited", but we even prohibit some factory items such as "+" basepads and the like, even if they come that way from the OFM in some markets. Having said that, we do allow some leeway in respect of sights and magazines but, frankly speaking, if I had my way, you wouldn't even have "wiggle room" with those items. Unfortunately when PD was being created, I was quite busy writing the main body of the 14th Edition rulebook, otherwise I wouldn't been banging the table with my shoe and screaming "NO MODS AT ALL"! Anyway, as sfinney correctly stated, we had to draw the line somewhere, and this particular line was drawn very close to the standard OFM configuration of each model. In a nutshell, if you want to build a customised gun, we have Open, Modified, Standard and Revolver Standard Divisions. Production Division is for "purists" like me, who know the difference between winning and losing a match is not the gun, "go faster" stripes or (ahem) "butt plugs". The difference is the guy holding the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mai Posted June 21, 2004 Author Share Posted June 21, 2004 Hi! Peter He bought that gun when he do not know anything about IPSC, he trust the onpenion of magazine collumnis interm of light recoil and bla bla bla. He stupid ? May be, like I myself used to be and problably still be. At that time, four years ago, no one gave any suggestion to me except the gun-testing report from gun-magazines. Oh! man, I really read a lot and I trusted them. What was coming up? , I end up buying 3-4 guns that now almost useless to me. I kind of really mad at the magazine for a while. Yes, time pass by I found that every guns (I mean EVERY) they tested were all good guns (they said). I growing older (just 3 years) and I figure out that if they tell the truth ( I mean the whole truth) , no gun shop want to coperate and lent them the gun for testing. No more hard feeling to the magazines and also no more reading them. So what? I fall in love with the IPSC for 3 years and spent a lot more money anyway. Just a cheap fairytale, ha! Hope to see you in Chiangmai Contest this october Best regards Mai P.S. Vince, I like your last sentence "The difference is the guy holding the gun." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Vince: Any insight why USPSA allows tungsten guide rods? Although they are limited to adding no more than 2oz. to the pistol, it still seems to be a "gaming" advantage. This is similiar to allowing shooters to "cock" their pistols after the draw to achieve a single action first shot due to "compalints" that it was "just too difficult" to hit anything with a DA first shot. Does IPSC allow tungsten guide rods in Production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Does IPSC allow tungsten guide rods in Production? Unless they come as part of the weapon as manufactured, the answer is NO : 19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following: 19.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited. 19.2 Base plates and/or any other devices which provide additional ammunition capacity (e.g. “+2” magazine extensions), are prohibited. 19.3 Front sights may be trimmed, adjusted and/or have sight black applied. 20. Aftermarket parts, components and accessories are prohibited, except as follows: 20.1 Aftermarket magazines which match the external dimensions of standard magazines offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted. 20.2 Aftermarket sights of the same type and kind offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun. 20.3 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape is permitted, however, rubber sleeves are prohibited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Thanks for the info on the plug. Not to beat this into the ground ... I understand that IPSC does not allow "C" Glocks to compete in Prod no matter what ... but, the way Garfield stated the rules begs a question ... for me. Does IPSC allow a non-"C" Glock 20 to compete in Prod if it has an aftermarket .40sw bbl? I'm no gunsmith ... but, as I understand it, the only difference would be that the .40sw bbl chamber is slightly (1/16th?) shorter than a 10mm chamber. I suppose someone could complain that that would be adding weight. A few of us have gotten into these types of discussions. My stance is that if you're gonna shoot Prod, shoot a stock pistol. But, there's also another side ... the lawyer side ... which I disapprove of just as much. When someone tries to add weight to the gun or send it to JP for "slickening" ... well, if that's what you gotta do to be pleased with yourself. But, if someone's gonna cry about a plastic butt plug (not the same as what I was referencing earlier) which weighs no more than 1oz and was added only for cosmetic reasons or to make the shooter feel like his internals were better protected ... well, if that's what you gotta do to improve your odds. Of course, as I mentioned in another thread regarding a tungsten guide rod ... best not to tempt fate on such matters ... a butt plug looks like a butt plug and no one wants to have to weigh everyone's butt plug at every match to make sure that no one's cheating. That and $0.50 will get you a small coffee. I'm a firm believer in what Vince said ... it's the guy holding the gun ... not the gun itself. As such, I don't believe a tungsten guide rod, of just about any weight, would make any difference anyway. Still, it's nice ... or, it'd be nice ... to have one division where you don't need to spend a small fortune to keep your equipment competitive. Seems to me I read recently where some guy said something like "the trigger-pull has the single-biggest effect on accuracy" ... I would change that to say that it has more to do with accuracy by a factor of 10 than everything else combined ... but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Any insight why USPSA allows tungsten guide rods? Although they are limited to adding no more than 2oz. to the pistol, it still seems to be a "gaming" advantage. This is similiar to allowing shooters to "cock" their pistols after the draw to achieve a single action first shot due to "compalints" that it was "just too difficult" to hit anything with a DA first shot. Does IPSC allow tungsten guide rods in Production? The short answer is, no, I don't know why the USPSA allows numerous modifications in PD (e.g. aftermarket guide rods) and various other differences, which are prohibited under IPSC rules. There's a longer answer too, but I prefer not to go there, because doing so would require me to resurrect a previous "political" debate, and that's something which is probably best left where it is now - at the back of the secret vault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Deuce, If I were to beat you at a match it wouldn't be my lightly modified gun and wimpy 127.2 PF 147 gr. 9mm load that would be beating you --- it would be the combination of that gun in my hands. My gun has had the trigger lightened with a reduced power firing pin spring and some judicious polishing of factory parts, it sports ISMI 13 lb. recoil springs on a tungsten rod because it wouldn't cycle with that load and a heavier spring. I can't tell a huge difference between the tungsten rod and a Glock plastic one --- except I'm pretty sure that the tungsten rod doesn't flex. Other shooters in Production Division are gravitating away to ward shooting .40s downloaded to around a 133 PF, still others prefer snappy 115 gr. loads. A friend of mine shoots factory 115 gr. ball out of a steel framed 226 --- that gun shoots about as flat as my Glock. My point is this: You're free within the confines of the USPSA rulebook to make whatever modifications you wish to achieve harmony between you and the gun. When asked about potential rule/division changes by my AD, I told him that I wanted the divisions and their equipment rules to be left alone --- because I don't want any more shooters walking away from the sport because they've spent good money on modifications that are now effectively outlawed. Last but not least --- if you really want to take the gun out of the equation, we should have the production guns provided on the stages as we shoot them, i.e. at the Summer Blast all production division shooters will be shooting Sigs, or on Stage 1 you'll be competing with an S&W, on Stage 2 with the HK, etc. etc. As long as shooters have a choice of guns, the whole equipment issue won't go away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I'd still appreciate an answer ... from Vince maybe ... on my non-"C" Glock 20 w/.40sw bbl question. Nik, it's apparent to me that I wouldn't know what does or does not offer a competitive advantage. But I do see Production as a "stock" division. Aside from any necessary work to make a gun reliable, I don't see "tuning" as being "in the spirit of" the Production division. I appreciate that you put in a lot of work to make a particlur load run well in your gun and you don't want to have to undo that. I also appreciate that everything you've done is legal. And I don't have a problem with that. Just as a matter of my opinion, I'd rather see USPSA get closer to IPSC Production rules than farther away. If a gun, bought off the shelf, of a particular make and model, cannot compete, "untuned", with any other such gun, then maybe it isn't an appropriate choice for Production. In the end, I really don't care one way or the other that much. I just like guns and shooting and, as a consequence, I like to talk about anything related to those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Deuce, When I emailed Amidon a while back asking about using a 40 barrel in the G20 in Limited (same caliber...and legal, btw) we kinda discussed Production. I think that the there was no mention in the current (red 14th edition) book about that for USPSA Production. Looking thru the "new" rules...it hasn't been addressed (though, barrel swaps are allowed). I would guess that means it is legal...BUT, I would certainly ask first. Just as a matter of my opinion, I'd rather see USPSA get closer to IPSC Production rules than farther away. If a gun, bought off the shelf, of a particular make and model, cannot compete, "untuned", with any other such gun, then maybe it isn't an appropriate choice for Production. My opinion here is different. I would rather see IPSC get closer to USPSA Production rules. I would much rather tune a current gun (cheaply and easily), than need to go out and buy the latest "best gun" for Production ever time a new model comes along. (But, we have beat that around on here too much already.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 When the notion strikes me, I shoot Production (USPSA) with a G20C with a replacement .40sw bbl. I see this as no different than the G21 ... or even shooting the G20 with light loads. I prefer this setup as I have fairly large hands (XXL) and the G20 seems to fill 'em up more ... and I don't handload and .40sw is a lot cheaper than .45acp and/or 10mm. I'd still appreciate an answer ... from Vince maybe ... on my non-"C" Glock 20 w/.40sw bbl question. Sorry, I thought you were making a statement, not asking a question! Anyway, the official answer is "It's against the rules" but the underlying reason is "Such a gun set-up is not produced by a factory" - it's essentially a prototype. As I've stated ad nauseum, if you want to mix 'n' match, we have four other divisions. If you think Production is too restrictive, don't shoot it, but there are boatloads of people around the world who've embraced PD as a refreshing change because Production Division, more than any other, really separates the men from the boys (not $$$$ from $). And every division has it's restrictions, including the so-called Open Division (e.g. magazine length, calibre controls). I would much rather tune a current gun (cheaply and easily), than need to go out and buy the latest "best gun" for Production ever time a new model comes along. Can you identify one new gun which has been released in the 5 years since PD was introduced which fits your (doomsday) "best gun" description? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwalker Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Vince, Hear, Hear... Let's keep production production. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Vince, I am not going to have this conversation with you again. Especially when you've made up your mind (characterizing my opinion as "doomsday"). It's just not worth my time. If you are ever truely open to input, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Flex, I'm always open to input, but you've made a claim yet you've failed to substantiate it. You imply that new guns keep being released which essentially force competitors to upgrade if they want to remain competitive in Production Division. I've asked you to identify one example. As a comparison, I've had other people tell me that the IPSC Metric Target would be removed from the IPSC website and rulebook within 3 to 5 years - that was 6 years ago, and I still see it there. That too was a "doomsday" prediction. You prove me wrong in respect of Production Division and I'll happily eat humble pie and retract my "doomsday" label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 (edited) (edited) As to the actual question, I have a 17C, I wrote to John A. and asked about replacing the barrel and got an Ok to do it reply for Production, I have a friend that asked the same question with regards to a 22C and got the opposite answer. Unfortuneatly I have lost the original question and reply due to a computer crash a year or so back. I'd love to post it! I had to go buy another 17 to shoot production since the ruling was apparently reversed. Jim Edited June 23, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Jim, It has been my experience that how the question is worded to Amidon makes a difference. I have to imagine that he gets a pile of questions on a daily basis...and, I know (just look at confusion from questions posted here) that the communication can easily break down when passed through a quick email. I have found Amidon to be fair and consistent...when the question has been stated (crystal) clearly. I feel confident in saying that, if you got two different answers, then the question was misunderstood in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Vince, thanks for the confirmation ... that's what I woulda thought. FWIW, I understand I could shoot that gun in other divisions ... the bottom-line is it's really no different than a G21 which is legal. Put another way, if Glock were to offer a G40 (identical to G20 but with a .40sw bbl ... yet to be produced ) and sold 2,000 of 'em, it'd be legal. And, I got this funny thing about trying to get a decent classification in ALL divisions. I'm not trying to be a gamer here. Anyhow, I was just curious what the actual IPSC rule on that would be ... so, again, thanks for the response. Flex, I appreciate that this topic has already been beaten into the ground ... I hope you appreciate that I missed out on that Anyhow, personally, I don't like to disassemble guns and try to mess with 'em ... if they run, they run ... if they don't, they go back to the factory until they do ... or I get rid of 'em. If your "light tuning" gives you even the slightest advantage over me with an, otherwise, identical gun, then it isn't only about my shooting skills vs. your shooting skills anymore ... it's about those combined with your gunsmithing skills vs. my gunsmithing skills (or, lack thereof). And I don't think that jives with the "spirit" that Production was created with. Again, that's just my opinion. I understand, and respect yours. I guess we just see it differently ... no big deal. FWIW, following up on my earlier statement, I think IPSC rules could lighten up a bit too. But, as I said, I don't see that I'm in any position to debate the issue intelligently. Until everyone can agree what "modifications" might, or will not, provide a competitive advantage, I suppose about the best you can do is stick with the way things are. One interesting thing though ... what if SV/STI were to build a DA pistol ... ala Glock or even Para LDA ... ala Ltd/Edge ... and sell 'em for around $1000/ea ... and if they sold over 2,000 of 'em? I'm sure you'd still have guys with Glocks beatin' 'em ... but I just thought I'd throw that out there for potential discussion. Along those lines ... just out of curiousity, what, technically, prohibits the G34/G35 from IPSC Production? I'm guessing it's the 3.5lbs trigger ... but, I thought you could get that in the 5lbs? BTW, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions ... I really appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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