rvb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 How does the use of magnetic magazine holders in ANY division comply with this: 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). [devil's advocate] They are IN the magnetic field! [/devil's advocate] -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Sights -- What's a set of black Warren/Sevigny's run these days $70? 3.5 lb connector, and firing safety plunger, and a couple of springs -- that's another $70-75 Grip tape -- that'll be $30 for a three pack O.K., I've added $150 to the base price of the gun. In my opinion that's cheap, so why am I agreeing with Cy? In my opinion, you're overlooking the fact that $150 is over 30% of the cost of the gun you're shooting. Having to spend 30% more for a gun just to be competitive is definitely not in the spirit of the Production division, and represents the precise reason why these new rules exist. I think the last straw was the $1200 G34s, which came with trigger jobs, stippling, and an "internal magwell" that caused even moderately minded people to get fed up. For the record, I do not use a DOH in Production, I never have, and the gun I shoot in Production is a 100% out of the box gun. I don't shoot that much Production, but I refuse to play the gear game, because that is not what Production is about. Edited January 13, 2012 by twodownzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I'm guessing that we need to wait for how the rule actually gets written out, but current the BoD meeting minutes just says "Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means." If I sew on magnets to the backs of gloves, would this be legal in 2013 for Production and Single Stack? Is the banning of "magnetic means" within the context of use pouches only, or a complete ban on magnets? The 05/08/11 NROI ruling on 5.2.4 says: Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. Some people may say that "in the hand" implies that the magazines must be be "in" the hand, and not "on" the back of the palm. I ask how do you reconcile that with 5.2.4 also uses the phrase "in retention devices"? That would then mean that Open, Limited, and Limited-10 shooters may not have the magazine "on" the magnets. Although, I voted against magnets in the poll above, I did it with the understanding that it was only no magnets on the belt, but I was still free to put magnets elsewhere. Edited January 13, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 How does the use of magnetic magazine holders in ANY division comply with this: 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). They are held IN a magnetic field.... And, by the new rules, putting more than 1 mag in your back pocket moves you to open..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) What I don't get is, people who are vehemently opposed to the 3lb trigger pull rule are for the magnet ban. Folks, it's the same thing. They (the BOD) are trying to take something away from you to make you less competitive, something that is LEGAL, but in the future won't be. Saying you are against the 3lb rule, then saying you are for the magnet ban is, well, hypocritical. If you don't want the magnets, then why such the uproar over the 3lb rule? Everybody says, the magnets are not in the "spirit of Production"....Well, neither is re-working your trigger, changing the sites, having a competition belt, etc., but I guess the line gets drawn at a $20 magnet instead of a $150 trigger job, or $120 sites. I will admit, there are those shooting bone stock production guns out there, I was one, and I'm still one, although now with a Shadow instead of an XDM. If you don't want to spend the money to make it better, fine. I'm ok with that. But where will you draw the line? Changing this mid stream is no different than implementing the 3lb rule. Passing a rule banning something in the future when it is legal now and the SHOOTERS RIGHT to make those mods, well, that's where I draw the line. You want to keep Production as close to real world as possible? I'm ok with that as well, but then you must do away with all the mods, and you have to shoot what you buy. Either way, a gear race will insue, there is no way around it. It is the nature of humans to look for an edge....Survival of the fittest.... The only way to stop the gear race is to star a new division(s), where NOTHING can be done to the gun, and all guns must be the same manufacturer in that division (all Glocks, all CZ's, all Springers, etc., each with a separate division). But that will stifle development, and people will still gravitate to the guns that are built with better triggers, tighter frames, and better sites, leaving others to die a nasty death in the wasteland of unwanted guns... Besides, we will find a way around it.... Edit to add, for all those who insist that magnets are not in the spirit or intent of Production.... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=143671&view=findpost&p=1613346 Very first post...... Edited January 13, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Saying you are against the 3lb rule, then saying you are for the magnet ban is, well, hypocritical. You want to keep Production as close to real world as possible? I'm ok with that as well, but then you must do away with all the mods This statement is why I don't feel there is hypocrocy between the magnet and the trigger pull opinions. I really don't want to put it in "real world" perspective, so I'll put it in "new shooter" perspectives. PD is supposedly a division where new members can bring the gear they have. And this is why I support stippling and trigger work and sight changes.... because shooters who have NEVER been involved in shooting games will arrive to a match with gear with that kind of work done to their guns. We want them to be able to fit in PD, don't we? Box Stock? Even outside of the shooting sports that is a rare find among gun enthusists. And another thing that is a rare find for those new shooters we want to bring into the sport and into a production division..... magnets on their belt. The only way to stop the gear race ... We have a wide variety of guns being used, and even winning at the top level. The equipment race doesn't really exist, other than forum chatter. Box stock would create a serious race. Even if a division was limited to a single manufacturer, there were still be a single model that would be the de-facto standard. Currently, with the limited modifications allowed, a shooter can feel content and competitive with the gear of their choice. -rvb Edited January 13, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Saying you are against the 3lb rule, then saying you are for the magnet ban is, well, hypocritical. You want to keep Production as close to real world as possible? I'm ok with that as well, but then you must do away with all the mods This statement is why I don't feel there is hypocrocy between the magnet and the trigger pull opinions. I really don't want to put it in "real world" perspective, so I'll put it in "new shooter" perspectives. PD is supposedly a division where new members can bring the gear they have. And this is why I support stippling and trigger work and sight changes.... because shooters who have NEVER been involved in shooting games will arrive to a match with gear with that kind of work done to their guns. We want them to be able to fit in PD, don't we? Box Stock? Even outside of the shooting sports that is a rare find among gun enthusists. And another thing that is a rare find for those new shooters we want to bring into the sport and into a production division..... magnets. The only way to stop the gear race ... We have a wide variety of guns being used, and even winning at the top level. The equipment race doesn't really exist, other than forum chatter. Box stock would create a serious race. Even if a division was limited to a single manufacturer, there were still be a single model that would be the de-facto standard. Currently, with the limited modifications allowed, a shooter can feel content and competitive with the gear of their choice. -rvb There will be just as many, if not more, new shooters that have absolutely nothing done to their guns. Many of the newbs you are talking about are shooting box stock guns, mainly it's because it's their first, and they want to shoot it, and have no other place to do so... Yes, an enthusiast will make mods, but a newb, well, they want their guns all nice and purty for a while.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) There will be just as many, if not more, new shooters that have absolutely nothing done to their guns. Many of the newbs you are talking about are shooting box stock guns, mainly it's because it's their first, and they want to shoot it, and have no other place to do so... Yes, an enthusiast will make mods, but a newb, well, they want their guns all nice and purty for a while.... Just to clarify my post, when I talk about new shooters, I'm not talking about folks brand new to guns, but new to our sport, which encompassed folks brand new to shooting as well as those who have been shooting and "into guns" enough to work on their gun. I suspect we see more of the later than the former show up to their first match. I've seen it happen, especially in IDPA, when folks I've personally tried to get into the sport get turned off from the game because their gun gets bumped to the "racier" division because their grip is stippled, for instance, and they loose desire to return. There is a ballance. Too modified, and pure stock are the extreme swings of the pendulum. MY opinion is where we are now is very nearly centered on what the division should be. I think BOTH the trigger pull restriction AND allowing magnetic mag holders pull the pendulum away from center. just this production shooter's 2c. -rvb Edited January 13, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 There will be just as many, if not more, new shooters that have absolutely nothing done to their guns. Many of the newbs you are talking about are shooting box stock guns, mainly it's because it's their first, and they want to shoot it, and have no other place to do so... Yes, an enthusiast will make mods, but a newb, well, they want their guns all nice and purty for a while.... Just to clarify my post, when I talk about new shooters, I'm not talking about folks brand new to guns, but new to our sport, which encompassed folks brand new to shooting as well as those who have been shooting and "into guns" enough to work on their gun. I suspect we see more of the later than the former show up to their first match. I've seen it happen, especially in IDPA, when folks I've personally tried to get into the sport get turned off from the game because their gun gets bumped to the "racier" division because their grip is stippled, for instance, and they loose desire to return. There is a ballance. Too modified, and pure stock are the extreme swings of the pendulum. MY opinion is where we are now is very nearly centered on what the division should be. I think BOTH the trigger pull restriction AND allowing magnetic mag holders pull the pendulum away from center. just this production shooter's 2c. -rvb And I appreciate your .02c...... But, in the words of John Lennon...."Let it be, Let it be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 But, in the words of John Lennon...."Let it be, Let it be! I -certainly- understand that sentiment! I think Flex's point of nipping it in the bud / better now than later, is a good perspective on the magnets. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 My perspective is that it's already bloomed....Cat out of the bag....Genie out of the bottle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 My perspective is that it's already bloomed....Cat out of the bag....Genie out of the bottle.... Is it? Perhaps my view is limited; I haven't been travelling/shooting as much the last couple years. Are magnet mag holders used commonly at all in production? I'm sure there's an example or two, but is it common? If a tree falls and no one is around to hear it.......? -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 If there is one production shooter using a magnet, then it has already bloomed....I know of several, myself included.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Saying you are against the 3lb rule, then saying you are for the magnet ban is, well, hypocritical. Hey! I resemble that comment. Andy and Ryan have posted great comments above. My observations of local shooters here seem to be in line with what Ryan has said about how new shooters find their way into USPSA: by the time they get introduced into USPSA, they would have already done some tweaks to their gun. Andy is quite correct about the genie having been let out of the bottle. On the other hand, people also had paint in their magwells and that genie managed to be pulled back by a ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 I should have added another question to the poll... Such as: Do you use a magnet magazine holder in Production? We could have seen how many are out there that use them.... Hindsight is 20/20..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 My perspective is that it's already bloomed....Cat out of the bag....Genie out of the bottle.... Is it? Perhaps my view is limited; I haven't been travelling/shooting as much the last couple years. Are magnet mag holders used commonly at all in production? I'm sure there's an example or two, but is it common? If a tree falls and no one is around to hear it.......? -rvb There was a proliferation of magnets around this area after last year's area match showed the advantages of having one or two for the limited capacity divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I salvaged some magnets out of a dead hard drive and have them on my belt for L-10. I'm contemplating modding my Comp-Tac Belt Fed to embed some magnets when I go back to shooting Production (and magnets are still legal). Edited January 13, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Saying you are against the 3lb rule, then saying you are for the magnet ban is, well, hypocritical. Hey! I resemble that comment. Andy and Ryan have posted great comments above. My observations of local shooters here seem to be in line with what Ryan has said about how new shooters find their way into USPSA: by the time they get introduced into USPSA, they would have already done some tweaks to their gun. Andy is quite correct about the genie having been let out of the bottle. On the other hand, people also had paint in their magwells and that genie managed to be pulled back by a ruling. Now, I agree with the paint in the magwell ruling...That is actually a modification of the gun, to give a visual reference to speed up the replenishment of a magazine into the weapon.... The magnet does not speed up your actual shooting, nor does it make you shoot more "A"s (well, neither did the paint, but...external modification of the gun). Also, more than likely, the paint was even cheaper than the magnet is, and when removed, it's gone, where as when the magnet is removed, you have a $20 hunk of metal that's good for nothing but holding your old classification cards on your fridge.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Now, I agree with the paint in the magwell ruling...That is actually a modification of the gun, to give a visual reference to speed up the replenishment of a magazine into the weapon.... Well look who's being hypocritical now... So it is OK to ban the paint in the mag well (which BTW is not visible once the magazine is inserted) but it is not OK to prohibit the use of a "competition-only" device which is going to help some shooters shave valuable time off of certain stages? ...where as when the magnet is removed, you have a $20 hunk of metal that's good for nothing but holding your old classification cards on your fridge.... How is that the other shooter's fault? A similar thing happened to many of us when IDPA prohibited the use of Uncle Mike's holsters. There went $20 on a holster that is now illegal for IDPA. We all just purchased a different holster and kept on shooting. Yes, I still have the Uncle Mike's holster as well as some Galco's, and a bunch of Blade-Tech, and a couple of other leather holster, etc, etc, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 ban the paint in the mag well (which BTW is not visible once the magazine is inserted) That ruling bothered me for that reason... it's not visible w mag in, which is how we determine legality for the division w/ regard to gun weight, dimensions, etc [/drift off] -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Saying you are against the 3lb rule, then saying you are for the magnet ban is, well, hypocritical. Hey! I resemble that comment. Andy and Ryan have posted great comments above. My observations of local shooters here seem to be in line with what Ryan has said about how new shooters find their way into USPSA: by the time they get introduced into USPSA, they would have already done some tweaks to their gun. Andy is quite correct about the genie having been let out of the bottle. On the other hand, people also had paint in their magwells and that genie managed to be pulled back by a ruling. Now, I agree with the paint in the magwell ruling...That is actually a modification of the gun, to give a visual reference to speed up the replenishment of a magazine into the weapon.... The magnet does not speed up your actual shooting, nor does it make you shoot more "A"s (well, neither did the paint, but...external modification of the gun). Also, more than likely, the paint was even cheaper than the magnet is, and when removed, it's gone, where as when the magnet is removed, you have a $20 hunk of metal that's good for nothing but holding your old classification cards on your fridge.... Sorry for the thread drift, but I'm still wondering how DNROI determined that the paint in the magwell is an external modification, yet somehow the Sevigney Speedway is an internal modification. I know, I know the current D4 22.4 allows it. I don't know if the Speedway predates the blue rule book or not, though and it was another case of the genie being out of the bottle. Actually the magnet does speed up the shooting over the entire stage. Since in USPSA scoring is time is a factor, there is a benefit to saving time. The same way the paint decreases the chances of lost time with a missed reload, the magnets save time spent stuffing pouches or juggling magazines on "grab mag" stages. I think that the inequity of the magnets is that a shooter can train to be more precise with their reloads with or without the paint, but a shooter has to build up skill to stuff mag pouches, versus the ease of simply throwing a mag against a magnet. Edited January 13, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Now, I agree with the paint in the magwell ruling...That is actually a modification of the gun, to give a visual reference to speed up the replenishment of a magazine into the weapon.... Well look who's being hypocritical now... So it is OK to ban the paint in the mag well (which BTW is not visible once the magazine is inserted) but it is not OK to prohibit the use of a "competition-only" device which is going to help some shooters shave valuable time off of certain stages? ...where as when the magnet is removed, you have a $20 hunk of metal that's good for nothing but holding your old classification cards on your fridge.... How is that the other shooter's fault? A similar thing happened to many of us when IDPA prohibited the use of Uncle Mike's holsters. There went $20 on a holster that is now illegal for IDPA. We all just purchased a different holster and kept on shooting. Yes, I still have the Uncle Mike's holster as well as some Galco's, and a bunch of Blade-Tech, and a couple of other leather holster, etc, etc, etc... Cy, there was and still is a ban on external modifications of the gun. Saying I agree with that ruling (paint in the magwell) is not hypocritical and has nothing to do with a magnet as a mag holder. A magnet is not an external modification of the gun.....And, how is it a competition only device? I'm quite sure you could use one "for every day use"....Which by the way, only applies to holsters..... How is it my fault if the other shooter doesn't have a magnet on his belt? Let a newb shoot one match, just one match, with an unloaded table start, and have them see one shooter with a magnet, and I'm sure they will consider buying one, and think to themselves "Hey, that's pretty slick!", and not think twice about the $20 they paid for it...Obviously, you know exactly what I'm talking about, cause you have a bunch of holsters you no longer use....Sure, we'll keep on shooting, but that's not the point.... Edit to add....Where does it say anything in the rules about magazine holders, other than where they can be placed? Not anywhere in D4, nor in 5.2 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). I give you the DAA magnetic mag holder, specifically designed for that purpose.... Edited January 13, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Saying you are against the 3lb rule, then saying you are for the magnet ban is, well, hypocritical. Hey! I resemble that comment. Andy and Ryan have posted great comments above. My observations of local shooters here seem to be in line with what Ryan has said about how new shooters find their way into USPSA: by the time they get introduced into USPSA, they would have already done some tweaks to their gun. Andy is quite correct about the genie having been let out of the bottle. On the other hand, people also had paint in their magwells and that genie managed to be pulled back by a ruling. Now, I agree with the paint in the magwell ruling...That is actually a modification of the gun, to give a visual reference to speed up the replenishment of a magazine into the weapon.... The magnet does not speed up your actual shooting, nor does it make you shoot more "A"s (well, neither did the paint, but...external modification of the gun). Also, more than likely, the paint was even cheaper than the magnet is, and when removed, it's gone, where as when the magnet is removed, you have a $20 hunk of metal that's good for nothing but holding your old classification cards on your fridge.... Sorry for the thread drift, but I'm still wondering how DNROI determined that the paint in the magwell is an external modification, yet somehow the Sevigney Speedway is an internal modification. I know, I know the current D4 22.4 allows it. I don't know if the Speedway predates the blue rule book or not, though and it was another case of the genie being out of the bottle. Actually the magnet does speed up the shooting over the entire stage. Since in USPSA scoring is time is a factor, there is a benefit to saving time. The same way the paint decreases the chances of lost time with a missed reload, the magnets save time spent stuffing pouches or juggling magazines on "grab mag" stages. I think that the inequity of the magnets is that a shooter can train to be more precise with their reloads with or without the paint, but a shooter has to build up skill to stuff mag pouches, versus the ease of simply throwing a mag against a magnet. I agree on that, it helps speed up the stage, but it doesn't help you reload any faster nor shoot any faster...All of that is still dependent upon the shooter.... Edit to add:But what point is there to slowing down a shooter by making them stuff pouches when there is an alternative, if they so desire to buy it (or make it, as the case may be)? Edited January 13, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Edit to add....Where does it say anything in the rules about magazine holders, other than where they can be placed? Not anywhere in D4, nor in 5.2 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). I give you the DAA magnetic mag holder, specifically designed for that purpose.... But is it "carried in" the retention device? Yeah, I know. The standard reply is its in the magnetic field as noted by Andy in post #51. Edited January 13, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centermass Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'll admit that 2012 will be my fourth year shooting Prod, and had no clue magnets were allowed. I particiated in Area 5 last year, shot at 4 different clubs, yet did not notice other Prod shooters using magnetc retention. I feel so ignorant.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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