40sw Bear Creek 180 vs 200 w/ WST loads, opinions ...

[RippSpeed]

I cant keep running Montana Golds... And I'm planning to run some 40sw Bear Creeks with WST in my STI Edge w/ the factory barrel...

My questions is which is softer and less flippy ... 180gr or 200gr...

Please post you favorite loads and power factor... Another question since I'm going to load lead what do I have to do with the crimp on my Dillon Square Deal ??? Thanx in advance

Edited November 27, 2011 by RippSpeed

[OzzieF]

The difference I've felt with 200 and 180gr BC. The 200's feel more like a thump and slower flip.

The 180 is a bit more snappier. Since I prefer the quicker snap, I settled on the 180.

I haven't loaded with WST,

But a couple loads I use are :

180gr BC 5.3gr WSF @. 1.135" = 168pf

200gr BC 4.3gr WSF @ 1.135" = 169pf

180gr BC 4.6gr N320 @ 1.180 = 169 pf

These are through 5" schuemann barrel in my SV Limited gun.

All I do is take the bell out of the case. You don't want to over crimp.

Edited November 27, 2011 by OzzieF

[fltbed]

I ran tests a few years ago with WST, WSF and TiteGroup and could find no appreciable difference in felt recoil between the 180 gr. and 200 gr. when loaded to 170 PF.

A word of caution to you, or anyone else, reading this thread looking for load data. You cannot safely make power factor in the 40 with WST at SAAMI OAL’s. If your loading for a Glock, CZ, or any other type of 40 limited gun that forces you to load to SAAMI length, don’t use WST!

That said, My current load is:

Bear Creek 180 gr. FP

4.8 gr. WST

Mixed brass

OAL 1.200

FP 169-171 (depending on temp.)

As for your crimp, just follow this advice from Dillon and you’ll be fine.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=136939&st=0&p=1540008&hl=die%20set%20up&fromsearch=1entry1540008

Jeff

[Bob Hostetter]

I have used the Bear creek Moly bullets in my 40 cal Limited gun for several years. Up until last year I used the 180's over either WST or PB. Early last year I started playing with the 200 over either WST or PB. All of my load's are set at 1.175" OAL. I have since tested them against each other several times and have decided I like the 200's better. While the 200's can feel a little sluggish using a standard weight slide, with a lightened slide they regain the cycle speed and feeling of quickness while still feeling a little softer in recoil impulse. But that's just my opinion.

[2MoreChains]

I've been using the 180 gr TC's from Bear Creek with 4.9 gr of WST, OAL of 1.180". Averages about 172 PF. There is a little bit of smoke with that load, but it is only noticeable when shooting into the sun. Other than that, its been a good load in my 5" Eagle. I have not tried a 200 gr bullet yet, but have considered it since my .45acp load is to use a 200 gr SWC also from Bear Creek.

[mscott]

A word of caution to you, or anyone else, reading this thread looking for load data. You cannot safely make power factor in the 40 with WST at SAAMI OAL’s. If your loading for a Glock, CZ, or any other type of 40 limited gun that forces you to load to SAAMI length, don’t use WST!

Jeff

I'd argue against that advice. I'm not a serious high volume shooter, but I'd guess I've run at least 10k major loads through my Glocks in .40s&w using 180gr lead bullets and WST powder loaded to 1.135. I'm giving up lead bullets once my supply is gone, but not the WST powder as I've already worked up a load for 200gr Zeros.

Of course anyone else reading this should take my data and any other data found on the web with caution.

[RippSpeed]

I'm running a couple of loads for 200gr Bear Creeks TC bullets

4.0gr WST

4.1gr WST

4.2gr WST

4.3gr WST

all have an oal of 1.185 will chrono and post results...

[RippSpeed]

Update just finished chrono the loads...

200gr Bear Creek TC 40sw lead rounds w/ mixed once fired brass w/ WSP primers @ a sunny 62degrees and all 5 shot string ... Test with a Competition Electronics Pro Chrono Digital...

4.0gr WST:

HI = 864fps

LO = 835fps

AVG = 854fps

1.185" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

170.8PF

4.1gr WST:

HI = 881fps

LO = 849fps

AVG = 864fps

1.185" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

172.8PF

4.2gr WST

HI = 884fps

LO = 852fps

AVG = 867fps

1.185" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

173.4PF

4.3gr WST

HI = 922fps

LO = 887fps

AVG = 906fps

1.185" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

181.2PF

Thanx again for the info guys...

Edited December 2, 2011 by RippSpeed

[BlueOvalBruin]

I have used the Bear creek Moly bullets in my 40 cal Limited gun for several years. Up until last year I used the 180's over either WST or PB. Early last year I started playing with the 200 over either WST or PB. All of my load's are set at 1.175" OAL. I have since tested them against each other several times and have decided I like the 200's better. While the 200's can feel a little sluggish using a standard weight slide, with a lightened slide they regain the cycle speed and feeling of quickness while still feeling a little softer in recoil impulse. But that's just my opinion.

I agree completely with what Bob said. My stock Barsto (heavy slide + bull barrel like a stock edge) is balanced very nicely with the BC 180’s. When I tried the BC 200’s, it threw the gun out of its harmonious balance and I got a kind of muzzle wiggle. I might have been able to get rid of it with a lighter recoil spring but lightening the slide would have been better. But anyway I just went back to the 180s and my gun “sings” again.

[fltbed]

A word of caution to you, or anyone else, reading this thread looking for load data. You cannot safely make power factor in the 40 with WST at SAAMI OAL’s. If your loading for a Glock, CZ, or any other type of 40 limited gun that forces you to load to SAAMI length, don’t use WST!

Jeff

I'd argue against that advice. I'm not a serious high volume shooter, but I'd guess I've run at least 10k major loads through my Glocks in .40s&w using 180gr lead bullets and WST powder loaded to 1.135. I'm giving up lead bullets once my supply is gone, but not the WST powder as I've already worked up a load for 200gr Zeros.

Of course anyone else reading this should take my data and any other data found on the web with caution.

I knew as soon an I wrote that warning that someone would reply that, “I’ve loaded thousands and never had any problems”. Notice, I never said you can’t make major with WST at the short SAAMI lengths.

I said you can’t do it safely.

I would hazard a guess that you lead 180 gr. loads are just slightly over the SAAMI max pressure for the 40 of 35K p.s.i. Using a jacketed 200 gr. bullet at major, should put you close to the realm of what’s called “Proof” loads. (47-50K) Now, can you shoot loads this hot through your gun? Of course you can. The manufactures fire as much as a full magazine of this type of ammo through their guns before being shipped. The question is…should we?

A few things to remember when loading “out of bounds”. (so to speak)

Velocity increase and the coinciding pressure increase, are NOT linier.

Over All Length (OAL) has a huge impact on chamber pressure. (i.e. bullet set back from chambering)

Everything effects your chamber pressure. (temperature, altitude, humidity, bullet jacket hardness, the current friction coefficient of your barrel, internal case capacity, case grip strength of the bullet, primer, etc.) You get the idea.

Many of us like the soft recoil impulse using the combination of fast burning powders and heavy bullets. (i.e. WST, WSL, TiteGroup, Clays, Solo 1000, etc.) Just remember, it only takes a few of the above mentioned things to come together to create a “perfect storm” and end up with a round generating more chamber pressure than your gun can contain.

So again I caution anyone reading this thread. Don’t use really fast burning powders, (like WST) at SAAMI OAL’s, for major loads. Stick with the medium burners that will get you to major without all the extra pressure.

Jeff

PS Sorry for the thread drift.

[RippSpeed]

I have used the Bear creek Moly bullets in my 40 cal Limited gun for several years. Up until last year I used the 180's over either WST or PB. Early last year I started playing with the 200 over either WST or PB. All of my load's are set at 1.175" OAL. I have since tested them against each other several times and have decided I like the 200's better. While the 200's can feel a little sluggish using a standard weight slide, with a lightened slide they regain the cycle speed and feeling of quickness while still feeling a little softer in recoil impulse. But that's just my opinion.

I agree completely with what Bob said. My stock Barsto (heavy slide + bull barrel like a stock edge) is balanced very nicely with the BC 180’s. When I tried the BC 200’s, it threw the gun out of its harmonious balance and I got a kind of muzzle wiggle. I might have been able to get rid of it with a lighter recoil spring but lightening the slide would have been better. But anyway I just went back to the 180s and my gun “sings” again.

I didnt seem to feel or see this ... Maybe its my eyes are that bad or I dont have enough time; behind the trigger to understand and notice what is happening ... I've only started shooting this year...

My STI Edge slide has been lightened alittle bit... I had it flat topped, serated and had lighting holes cut of it ... And I'm also running a 10lb recoil spring with a aluma buff...

She seemed to cycle fine and with the 4.0gr load it felt good almost like when I use to run my HK USP 45 with 200gr semi wad cutters, nice and soft...

I'm gonna run these till I run out of my stock of bear creeks ... I picked up 3000 bullets from my supplier and already put 200rds down range... And hopefully then I'll be able to decide wether to stay with the 200gr or step down to 180gr...

[RippSpeed]

A word of caution to you, or anyone else, reading this thread looking for load data. You cannot safely make power factor in the 40 with WST at SAAMI OAL’s. If your loading for a Glock, CZ, or any other type of 40 limited gun that forces you to load to SAAMI length, don’t use WST!

Jeff

I'd argue against that advice. I'm not a serious high volume shooter, but I'd guess I've run at least 10k major loads through my Glocks in .40s&w using 180gr lead bullets and WST powder loaded to 1.135. I'm giving up lead bullets once my supply is gone, but not the WST powder as I've already worked up a load for 200gr Zeros.

Of course anyone else reading this should take my data and any other data found on the web with caution.

I knew as soon an I wrote that warning that someone would reply that, “I’ve loaded thousands and never had any problems”. Notice, I never said you can’t make major with WST at the short SAAMI lengths.

I said you can’t do it safely.

I would hazard a guess that you lead 180 gr. loads are just slightly over the SAAMI max pressure for the 40 of 35K p.s.i. Using a jacketed 200 gr. bullet at major, should put you close to the realm of what’s called “Proof” loads. (47-50K) Now, can you shoot loads this hot through your gun? Of course you can. The manufactures fire as much as a full magazine of this type of ammo through their guns before being shipped. The question is…should we?

A few things to remember when loading “out of bounds”. (so to speak)

Velocity increase and the coinciding pressure increase, are NOT linier.

Over All Length (OAL) has a huge impact on chamber pressure. (i.e. bullet set back from chambering)

Everything effects your chamber pressure. (temperature, altitude, humidity, bullet jacket hardness, the current friction coefficient of your barrel, internal case capacity, case grip strength of the bullet, primer, etc.) You get the idea.

Many of us like the soft recoil impulse using the combination of fast burning powders and heavy bullets. (i.e. WST, WSL, TiteGroup, Clays, Solo 1000, etc.) Just remember, it only takes a few of the above mentioned things to come together to create a “perfect storm” and end up with a round generating more chamber pressure than your gun can contain.

So again I caution anyone reading this thread. Don’t use really fast burning powders, (like WST) at SAAMI OAL’s, for major loads. Stick with the medium burners that will get you to major without all the extra pressure.

Jeff

PS Sorry for the thread drift.

Jeff;

being new to reloading ... My 1.185" OAL with WST would you call it safe or over pressured ???

[fltbed]

being new to reloading ... My 1.185" OAL with WST would you call it safe or over pressured ???

I would call it safe. The longer OAL decreases chamber pressures. It’s only when you load it to the short SAAMI lengths that you run into problems with the fast burners.

Jeff

[RippSpeed]

I had this disscussion with a buddy of mine ... Does OAL affects recoil or snappiness of a load ???

His load is 4.2 to 4.3 grains of WST and OAL 1.2"

while mine is 4.0 grains of WST and OAL 1.185"

does it matter ???

[JaeOne3345]

I loaded

- 4.0 at 1.180"

- 4.0 at 1.200

- 4.2-4.3 at 1.200"

I saw no over pressure signs with any of the casings.

4.0 at 1.180 and 4.2 at 1.200 felt pretty similar.

Of course 4.0 at 1.200 felt the softest but would also be too close to the edge of not making power factor.

If you want I can bring some 4.2 and 4.3 at 1.200 this weekend at Norco and compare after the match.

Edited December 5, 2011 by JaeOne3345

[JaeOne3345]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32977

[RippSpeed]

jae;

whats I'm trying to get at is trying to tailor my loads to my liking... I'm going to SoCal SharpShooter today to get a zero on my 1.180" 4.0gr loads as well to try would 4.2 and 4.3 grains @ 1.2" OAL

[RippSpeed]

WOW!!! every happy @ the accuracy of the load 1.185" OAL the same as the 1.2" OAL the same ... put 50rds in 5" birchwood casey target @ 12 to 13 yards ... I've been able to do that before... Very happy ...

The 1.185" OAL @ 4 grains is alittle more snappy than the 1.2" OAL @ 4.2 and 4.3grains but it returns the front sight to the original position faster ...

I think I found my load...

[RippSpeed]

just an update...

4.2gr WST

HI = 869fps

LO = 832fps

AVG = 854fps

1.2" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

170.8PF

4.3gr WST

HI = 870fps

LO = 852fps

AVG = 858fps

1.2" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

171.6PF

testing was done @ 68 Degrees on a sunny day...

[dejadoo]

just an update...

4.2gr WST

HI = 869fps

LO = 832fps

AVG = 854fps

1.2" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

170.8PF

4.3gr WST

HI = 870fps

LO = 852fps

AVG = 858fps

1.2" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

171.6PF

testing was done @ 68 Degrees on a sunny day...

These results were using the 200 grain bullets, is that correct?

[RippSpeed]

just an update...

4.2gr WST

HI = 869fps

LO = 832fps

AVG = 854fps

1.2" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

170.8PF

4.3gr WST

HI = 870fps

LO = 852fps

AVG = 858fps

1.2" OAL

CRIMP 0.425"

171.6PF

testing was done @ 68 Degrees on a sunny day...

These results were using the 200 grain bullets, is that correct?

Yup ... 200gr Bear Creeks Turncated Cone

[JaeOne3345]

Justin, thanks for the data.

I shot the 4.3 at 1.200 all day. Felt nice.

[RippSpeed]

Justin, thanks for the data.

I shot the 4.3 at 1.200 all day. Felt nice.

Jae;

I'll re-test when it gets warmer ... might need to up the powder when it gets hot again