Classifier

[Duane Thomas]

Let me give you another example and then I am done. At our Regional Match May 2nd, I think the same day as your state match, we had a shooter Sharpshooter SSP who shot 111.63. He was first in his class. Now get this....the SSP Expert who is known as a good Expert shot 112.26. The Sharpshooter thank goodness had 10 in his class so he was automatically bumped up to Expert. Not only did he win his class he also beat the Expert #1 shooter. So let's say there was only 9 in the class, he doesn't get bumped up does he? In my view, wrong, wrong, wrong. So we are talking about chance or luck instead of him being boosted up on his skills, his lucky day being only 9 shooters. I hope I am making my point.

It's worth noting the fact that someone did really well at a particular match - even if that match happened to be a state/national championship - and beats everyone in a higher class doesn't necessarily mean he's sandbagging. Example: the 2002 Washington State IDPA Championships. I go in there as a CDP Expert and I'm just ON both days, all 13 stages. I live in the zone for two days and consequently won state champion (CDP), about 20 seconds ahead of the 2nd place (Master class) shooter. Am I a sandbagger? Guys, I want my Master rank so bad I can taste it. I go out and give the classifier my all every time; so far I haven't shot my way out of Expert. But I will. (And no, we didn't have enough shooters in CDP Expert to bump me up. I'm still an Expert - in all three auto pistol divisions, actually.)

[Joe D]

Not a problem Mark I knew you were. There are only a few that sandbag, but those are so obvious that it kind of rubs me wrong.

One of the problems with our system is many times there are never enough shooters in the upper classes to make the 10 minimum. I think if you win your class and your score beats 50% of the shooters in the class above you should move up.

Personally I think it is much more of an accomplishment to beat your fellow shooters in a sanctioned match and be moved up than to move up after shooting the Classifier Match.

I still like the idea of having a Classifier stage in every local match. There are guys that just can't shoot the Classifier. I know one that finally got moved up to Master in CDP at the Al. Match. I know he shot the Classifier several times before that match to try and make Master. He was by no means a sandbagger. He just could not shoot the Classifier very well.

It would be very easy to come up with 20 simple Classifier stages. As I mentioned before the Classifier stages in USPSA are not that hard to set up.

[raven02003]

It says in the rule book that in an offical IPDA match the rule book should be follow to the letter. It says nothing in the book about this "known ablility" topic so then how can a person get move up by this. I can understand if a person agree to move up there is no problem, but if a person does not want to get moved up then is the match director able to move someone up by this rule? Another thing I question is how they can move some one up if you beat people above your divsion. It says that the book is to be followed to the letter so how can they do this? I would have no problem getting moved up if I beat people above me , but until the rule book is revised I do not know what the match director can do.

[John Forsyth]

from the LGB, pg. 45,

...The match director or club president is responsible for insuring that the shooter’s classification represents his true skill level and the match director/club president is the key element in the quality assurance of the classification system...

It says true skill level. If a shooter is beating everyone in his/her class as well as everyone in the class above them in a sanctioned match, and we are not just saying they had a good day, but on a consistent basis, they need to go up. I have not done it very many times, you could probably count them on one hand, but in every instance the shooter agreed with it.

This is being addressed in the new rulebook.

[neil]

Im new to IDPA. I have only shot about 5 matches and have missed the two matches that the club did shoot a classifier since last summer. so I just shoot unclassified and have as much fun as anybody there. Then back in april I drove 1 1/2 hours to the same club i have been shooting at, and waited in line with 200 other shooter to shoot the SC state match. just to be told i couldnt shoot with out a classification. I said no problem just put me in master class . they said sorry we cant do that, and sent me home..... Now if you have to have a classification to play this game, why not make a part of the regular matches a classifier?

Neil

[Duane Thomas]

How about not missing the two opportunities offered to shoot the classifier before the big match?

[Mayonaise]

Neil,

That's just wrong. They should have let you shoot if there was a slot open. I can't believe they would turn a guy away like that.

Edited to add: While I think the MD should have let you shoot "unclassified" (not MA) or not for score. You should have made an effort to contact the MD before packing up and driving to the match. Some MD's cap the number of shooters they will permit because of logistics. You risk being turned away as a walkup if they are already at capacity. I wouldn't drive to a match w/out having been a assured of a slot ahead of time.

Edited June 2, 2004 by Mayonaise

[Johnny Van Etta]

It says in the rule book that in an offical IPDA match the rule book should be follow to the letter. It says nothing in the book about this "known ablility" topic so then how can a person get move up by this. I can understand if a person agree to move up there is no problem, but if a person does not want to get moved up then is the match director able to move someone up by this rule? Another thing I question is how they can move some one up if you beat people above your divsion. It says that the book is to be followed to the letter so how can they do this? I would have no problem getting moved up if I beat people above me , but until the rule book is revised I do not know what the match director can do.

"It says in the rule book that in an offical IPDA match the rule book should be follow to the letter."

What page?

It says that the book is to be followed to the letter so how can they do this?

What page?

You quote a lot of the "book quote's this". Can you at least reference where you get your expert testimony?

"I would have no problem getting moved up".

Who are you to expect any system to accomodate you? I do not remember you nor do I recognize you as having been involved in the IDPA system. You have no say or connection into "what the IDPA match director can do".

Step up to the firing line. You can not make or support your position hiding behind an alias like " raven02003."

Be a part of the solution, or continue to be a part of the problem.

Johnny Van Etta

IDPA Area Coordinator

TX, NM, LA

CL-124

[raven02003]

Johnny,

I was hoping to share an opinion, not be a part of a problem. I understand that the existing system for Classification is imperfect. I do not believe that the answer is to fabricate solutions outside of IDPA's existing rules. I believe that we should lobby IDPA Headquqrters to update the rule book. Perhaps I created some confusion in my original post. I incorrectlyattributed to the rule book, information that was contained in The Match Sanction Information, on the IDPA website. Match requirements "4. IDPA rules as stated in the latest copy of the rule book will be followed to the letter." The exact same wording is also stated in the Match Sanction Application "4. IDPA rules as stated in the rule book will be followed to the letter." I might add that the Club President and the Match Director must sign off on this application.

The rule book specificly identifies three ways that a shooter can be promoted in their classification. 1. Shoot a Classifier (rule book pages 5&6), 2 & 3, "A shooter's performance in state or national matches...." (rule book page 45). There is no mention in the Rule Book of "Known Ability" as a method of classification promotion. I believe that this is a creative solution to an inherent problem with the current classification system. I would have no problem adhering to any rule in the latest copy of the rule book, but I do take exception to rules that appear to be outside of the rule book and are not uniformly followed.

"Who are you to expect any system to accomodate you."

My only expectation is that the rule book will be followed to the letter.

"You have no say or connection into what the IDPA match director can do."

I beg to differ with you. Please see page 34 in the most current issue of the rule book. "All scoring /officiating protests must be made to the match director and the decision of the match director will be final as long as his/her decision is in accordance with the rules as set forth in the most current issue of the official rule book." This would indicate that the match director is not above the rule book.

John Forsyth,

As stated above I can agree that the current promotion system is flawed however, I would disagree with your interpretation of the quote that you made on page 45 of the rule book. Your quote comes form a paragraph on "Classification Matches". This quote must be understood in the context of the paragraph that it applies to, specifically, Classification Matches, and how Classification Matches are to be run. There is no provision in the rule book for classification promotions in sanctioned matches unless they are State or National sanctioned matches. Regional sanctioned matches are neither a state nor a national sanctioned match, therefore any classificatrion eminating form a match that is neither state nor mnational is outside of the paramaters of the rule book. I might further add that any classification promotion that woud happen in such a match would be a violation of the Match Sanction Application that was signed off by both the club president and the match director.

To all who have suffered through the above, please accept it in the spirit of a healthy debate that will help move our sport forward. The alias is used for reasons easier to explain in person rather than a lengthy post. Hopefully we can talk about it at a match in the near future.

Respectfully,

raven02003

[Larrys1911]

<snippage>

There is no provision in the rule book for classification promotions in sanctioned matches unless they are State or National sanctioned matches. Regional sanctioned matches are neither a state nor a national sanctioned match, therefore any classificatrion eminating form a match that is neither state nor mnational is outside of the paramaters of the rule book.

To apply that logic you absolutely HAVE to be a FREAKIN ATTORNEY!

Let me make sure I understand this. BECAUSE it says National and State Level "Sanctioned" matches, but makes no mention of "Regional Sanctioned" matches, nothing in the rule applies to "Regional Sanctioned" matches that applies to National or State "Sanctioned" matches????? Just out of curiosity what would the purpose of having a regional match “Sanctioned" be? So what if it’s just a plain old "Sanctioned" match?

"You can’t promote me, we are at a "Regional" match, and they are not covered by the rule book...."

Yep, he’s right. Strictly interprited, thats what it says...IDPA is going to HAVE to have technical writers!

OK Ill one up you. Go back to the front of the rulebook, where it says

the Range Master can pretty much do whatever he wants and he is the FINAL arbiter at a match!!! DONE....... you’ve been moved up and out ranked and its "sanctioned" by HQ.

Furthermore if you call HQ and tell them you were moved from X to Y at the ------ Regional match and you want to know if that move stands referencing the logic above, I think someone is probably going to laugh at you thinking you are joking.

Johnny just make the rulebook say "all sanctioned matches"

I don’t mind the alias stuff, what I hate is having to type a 15 character name, then having to keep going back to and seeing how its spelled, such nonsense.

Larry P

[Mayonaise]

 

To apply that logic you absolutely HAVE to be a FREAKIN ATTORNEY!

LMFAO! Took the words from my mouth! Unbelievable!

[NEPAKevin]

I don't know if HQ is still doing this, but at one point all affiliated clubs received a letter that we were to sign and return that stated we had to follow the rule book to the letter if we wished to retain our affiliation.

Kevin