RO Stage Manipulations

[Skydiver]

Another chair related question: Can somebody describe "seating fully in chair" (ala CM 09-13 Table Stakes) ?

To me, this meant that shooter was sitting in the middle of the chair (eg. not just one butt cheek on the chair.) and that the shooter's back was touching the backrest of the chair. I didn't take it to mean that the shooters back, neck, and head had to be straight/erect. The shooter could be hunched over as long as part of their back was touching the backrest. Alternately, they could be slouching in the chair if they were concerned about gear hanging up on the chair. They can even lean to the left or right if they wish. Additionally, unless the WSB states a hand position, the shooter could have their hands anywhere they please as long as it wasn't on their gun or ammunition.

[Gary Johnson]

4.5.1 states that a competitor can not interfere with a prop - at anytime. If a movable chair can't be moved prior to the start signal, it should apply that it would not be allowed to be dislodged after the start signal. Jumping out of a folding chair could cause it to fly backwards - should then not a procedural penalty be applied? -- I know -- the discretion clause comes into play. I understand your approach to the chair issue, Gary.

The competitor isn't allowed to alter props but the RO can. It shouldn't be necessary but if the designer and setup crew fail to consider competitor size it may be the only viable option. A good example of this is providing a ramp for a junior who can't reach a high port.

My question isn't if it should be legal to do so - we have already determined that ROs can determine this - and it's not an argument against whether it can be done - but I want to know why an RO would want to so determine this so rigidly for competitors.

The only time I've seen range staff impose requirements beyond the briefing was when the designer was on the timer and competitors weren't doing it the way he thought they should. Got the stage tossed. Needless to say, it's not something I would permit at any match I'm running.

You asked the question

What part of DVC is tested by getting out of a chair?

I could say Celeritas, speed.

Celeritas is the test of shooting speed, not how quickly you can get out of a chair. Rule 1.1.2 specifically forbids using a COF as a test of physical ability.

Another example is a simple COF with a barricade and targets set to the left and right. The start position is hands on marks in the center of the barricade. The RO determines ahead of time that all competitors will be started standing in the center of the barricade. Instead of allowing the competitor to set up with hands touching the marks and the body either left or right according to what side the shooter is trying to get to. Obviously there are advantages to having to take half a step to a position versus a one and half step. Why would us as ROs want to guarantee all shooters start in the middle without any kind of problem solving on the start?

That's an excellent example of an overreaching RO. If the designer wants feet in a certain location he can put it in the design. If the RM/MD agree it will be included in the briefing. It's not the ROs place to add it after the fact and doing so without RM approval results in a trip behind the berm for Special High Intensity Training.

[Gary Johnson]

Can somebody describe "seating fully in chair"

Yes, but not in the space provided on a single sheet of 8.5x11 paper.

[Chills1994]

Should I just bring a twister game to my next match?

Before the shooter steps up to the line, he reaches over to spin the twister "compass"...

"okay, right foot on the blue circle....left hand on the red square."

As an MD/RO/stage designer, all this so called "gamesmanship" is gonna suck all the fun out of being an RO/MD.

you can be as gamey as you want to....after the beep and before "range is clear".

"P" stands for practical, right?

[Gary Johnson]

I understand your frustration.

My solution is to avoid narrowly defined start positions and other gimmicks and concentrate on the shooting. My typical briefing says something like 'start in the shooting area'. If they want to start sitting down or leaning against a barrel, fine by me. They don't even have to load the gun if they don't want to.

Should I just bring a twister game to my next match?

Before the shooter steps up to the line, he reaches over to spin the twister "compass"...

"okay, right foot on the blue circle....left hand on the red square."

As an MD/RO/stage designer, all this so called "gamesmanship" is gonna suck all the fun out of being an RO/MD.

you can be as gamey as you want to....after the beep and before "range is clear".

"P" stands for practical, right?

[Skydiver]

Should I just bring a twister game to my next match?

Before the shooter steps up to the line, he reaches over to spin the twister "compass"...

"okay, right foot on the blue circle....left hand on the red square."

As an MD/RO/stage designer, all this so called "gamesmanship" is gonna suck all the fun out of being an RO/MD.

you can be as gamey as you want to....after the beep and before "range is clear".

"P" stands for practical, right?

Is setting up with toes touching the rear fault line near one of the corners of the box for El Pres "gamesmanship"? Or is it a practical solution to the problem of complying with the WSB and still get efficient movement and thereby increasing speed?

I think that if the competitor satisfies the requirements for the start position as stated in the WSB, then they are good to go. If the competitor wishes to contort themselves in some uncomfortable position in the belief that it will give them an advantage, I let them. As I noted on another thread, at times, I've been known to sometimes maximize the time between "Are you ready?" and "Standby." and give the full 4 seconds before buzzer.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

Can somebody describe "seating fully in chair"

Yes, but not in the space provided on a single sheet of 8.5x11 paper.

LOL! And so is this the time when the WSB contains a phrase like "seating fully in chair as demonstrated by the RO" would be better?

[Chills1994]

From the old "combat shooting" and "slap leather" days... I think those guys could foresee having to shoot from a seated position or having to rapidly leave a seated position to begin shooting ... Hence, "practical".

[aztecdriver]

The competitor isn't allowed to alter props but the RO can. It shouldn't be necessary but if the designer and setup crew fail to consider competitor size it may be the only viable option. A good example of this is providing a ramp for a junior who can't reach a high port.

We're missing each others point, but specifics would be necessary to go further. Being that I don't have one - maybe the next time we get together a beer and bourbon discussion is in order. I'll leave this be for now.

The only time I've seen range staff impose requirements beyond the briefing was when the designer was on the timer and competitors weren't doing it the way he thought they should. Got the stage tossed. Needless to say, it's not something I would permit at any match I'm running.

Now we're getting somewhere.... I agree.

Celeritas is the test of shooting speed, not how quickly you can get out of a chair. Rule 1.1.2 specifically forbids using a COF as a test of physical ability.

Then the concept of seated starts should be banned and field courses should be explicitly defined as two steps between shooting positions, because the last time I looked, the clock starts at BEEP not first shot fired. I don't just sit and shoot - the rules require different positions at least every 8 shots. We might not be specifically creating tests of physical ability, but it's still a component of most matches. To ignore it vs the theorized intent of what C was supposed to be vs. what we do now is a little UNpractical. The faster I get from a to b matters - and it has nothing to do with shooting...

That's an excellent example of an overreaching RO. If the designer wants feet in a certain location he can put it in the design. If the RM/MD agree it will be included in the briefing. It's not the ROs place to add it after the fact and doing so without RM approval results in a trip behind the berm for Special High Intensity Training.

This IS exactly the point that i've been trying to get to, and what I was trying to illustrate with the chair - I just picked the wrong thread seeds to start with. This is my problem, and, I've seen more of it than in my previous 2 years... I would like to stop it. That is all. Beer please!

[aztecdriver]

I understand your frustration.

My solution is to avoid narrowly defined start positions and other gimmicks and concentrate on the shooting. My typical briefing says something like 'start in the shooting area'. If they want to start sitting down or leaning against a barrel, fine by me. They don't even have to load the gun if they don't want to.

Should I just bring a twister game to my next match?

Before the shooter steps up to the line, he reaches over to spin the twister "compass"...

"okay, right foot on the blue circle....left hand on the red square."

As an MD/RO/stage designer, all this so called "gamesmanship" is gonna suck all the fun out of being an RO/MD.

you can be as gamey as you want to....after the beep and before "range is clear".

"P" stands for practical, right?

This was my other point. I prefer to see this - as a designer, and I've run into a lot more rigidly defined starts, which may or may not have been thought about prior to the RM approving the stage, but was done "on the fly"... ie.,

Competitor says "I'm going to do X"... RO thinks to themselves that no one else has done that -- I'm just going to not allow it for "consistencies sake" and the response is "no, we're not going to do that, you must start Y because that's how everyone else has done it."... This is my problem defined.

[XRe]

with respect, no you can't rotate the chair anyplace you want it......

If there's no preset position for the chair (ie, marks on the ground, etc), or the chair is not nailed down, you sure as hell can...

[Chills1994]

Then it's the RO's prerogative to..well.. Basically be a dick and not start that shooter. If the shooter goes "WHAT?!" then the RO just says "NEXT SHOOTER!... You gotta problem with it, go track down the MD/RM....NEXT SHOOTER PLEASE!"

Let the MD/RM come over and figure it out... I mean that's what us MD's get paid the big bucks for.

Jeeeezzz... You'd think there was a new Chevy pick up truck on the line at each monthly local match.

You guys doing cash payback at your club?

[aztecdriver]

Then it's the RO's prerogative to..well.. Basically be a dick and not start that shooter. If the shooter goes "WHAT?!" then the RO just says "NEXT SHOOTER!... You gotta problem with it, go track down the MD/RM....NEXT SHOOTER PLEASE!"

Let the MD/RM come over and figure it out... I mean that's what us MD's get paid the big bucks for.

Jeeeezzz... You'd think there was a new Chevy pick up truck on the line at each monthly local match.

You guys doing cash payback at your club?

If you are talking about my post, which I'm not sure about - no, our clubs typically don't have this problem. I'm talking about a few majors that I attended last year, and I would like to address it before getting to the RM.

Edited November 18, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Nik Habicht]

You guys doing cash payback at your club?

Actually we do in the entire Mid-Atlantic Section...... :devil:

Not that that's necessary for a good rules debate.....

[Nik Habicht]

with respect, no you can't rotate the chair anyplace you want it......

If there's no preset position for the chair (ie, marks on the ground, etc), or the chair is not nailed down, you sure as hell can...

Um, nope. It's a prop. You get to sit on it -- definitively, if that's what the start calls for. You get to manipulate it at RO discretion -- because it's a prop.....

Now, you may run into ROs who won't enforce that. I fall into that camp anytime the position of the chair doesn't matter, and isn't specified....

[Chills1994]

Then it's the RO's prerogative to..well.. Basically be a dick and not start that shooter. If the shooter goes "WHAT?!" then the RO just says "NEXT SHOOTER!... You gotta problem with it, go track down the MD/RM....NEXT SHOOTER PLEASE!"

Let the MD/RM come over and figure it out... I mean that's what us MD's get paid the big bucks for.

Jeeeezzz... You'd think there was a new Chevy pick up truck on the line at each monthly local match.

You guys doing cash payback at your club?

If you are talking about my post, which I'm not sure about - no, our clubs typically don't have this problem. I'm talking about a few majors that I attended last year, and I would like to address it before getting to the RM.

Nahhh...I wasn't specifically talking about your post. Just basically a commentary about how i think some shooters are taking the competition especially at a local level way too seriously.

[Chills1994]

with respect, no you can't rotate the chair anyplace you want it......

If there's no preset position for the chair (ie, marks on the ground, etc), or the chair is not nailed down, you sure as hell can...

Um, nope. It's a prop. You get to sit on it -- definitively, if that's what the start calls for. You get to manipulate it at RO discretion -- because it's a prop.....

Now, you may run into ROs who won't enforce that. I fall into that camp anytime the position of the chair doesn't matter, and isn't specified....

Define "isn't specified"????

A. It is not written explicitly at the top of the WSB

B. The drawing/picture/diagram doesn't show the chair's orientation on the bottom half of the WSB sheet.

C. Both A and B

As an MD, the first time that I have to firmly affix a chair to the ground or some structure... Well... As far as me and USPSA goes, it'll be a jump the shark moment.

I'll seriously think about giving up the MD slot and/or look into not reaffiliating the next year. Somebody else can generate up their own USPSA club at that location.

[Jim Norman]

I see no problem with nailing the chair to the ground. Or with being very specific with how you must be seated upon it. Some people say it doesn't matter, I say it can, Why? Because it messes with the mental portion of the game.

[Nik Habicht]

with respect, no you can't rotate the chair anyplace you want it......

If there's no preset position for the chair (ie, marks on the ground, etc), or the chair is not nailed down, you sure as hell can...

Um, nope. It's a prop. You get to sit on it -- definitively, if that's what the start calls for. You get to manipulate it at RO discretion -- because it's a prop.....

Now, you may run into ROs who won't enforce that. I fall into that camp anytime the position of the chair doesn't matter, and isn't specified....

Define "isn't specified"????

A. It is not written explicitly at the top of the WSB

B. The drawing/picture/diagram doesn't show the chair's orientation on the bottom half of the WSB sheet.

C. Both A and B

As an MD, the first time that I have to firmly affix a chair to the ground or some structure... Well... As far as me and USPSA goes, it'll be a jump the shark moment.

I'll seriously think about giving up the MD slot and/or look into not reaffiliating the next year. Somebody else can generate up their own USPSA club at that location.

In order for me not to care about a chair's position two things need to happen: The chairs position needs to not be specified in the written portion of the WSB and slight alterations in position need to not matter for competitive equity on the stage -- i.e. the shooter who wants to launch left gets to angle himself/the chair in that direction, while the shooter who wants to launch right gets to angle that way.....

If I believe competitive equity will be affected -- I'll address that with the RM/stage designer and get it nailed down in writing (or physically) before the first shooter....

A number of us design the stage drawing by just dropping props in rough locations on the WSB during the design phase -- so the built reality always looks a little different. I'm not relying on orientation in the diagram, for communicating chair position....

[lcs]

I see no problem with nailing the chair to the ground. Or with being very specific with how you must be seated upon it. Some people say it doesn't matter, I say it can, Why? Because it messes with the mental portion of the game.

As long as you do not use another prop like a table and the WSB says some verbiage that specifies some portion of the lower body must be in some position UNDER the table or the hands must be placed on XX on the table.

Edited November 18, 2011 by lcs

[kamikaze1a]

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis.

There has been reference to gaming the start position - I don't consider it as such.

I like this. I feel, if what you choose to do is not contrary what is stated in the WSB (or rule book) but is safe and better/quicker than what everyone else does, more power to you. As 1.1.5 states, "solve the challenge". If someone objects, they are probably just jealous that they did not think of doing it that way... my 2¢

Edited November 19, 2011 by kamikaze1a

[kalaur]

Some shooters are 5' tall and some are 6.5' tall, some weigh 90 lbs. and some weigh 350 lbs. The location of the chair can make a huge difference with each of these body types.

That is why (IMO) nailing down a chair or painting around the edges is not always the answer, unless the chair is a standalone prop. Once you introduce tables, the fixed position is not fair to all.

So you're saying since I'm 6' tall I should be able to raise a wall so I don't have to crouch since a 5' tall person doesn't have to crouch to shoot through a port? Everyone is different, everyone has different shooting styles, everyone has to deal with stages in their own way.

If you want the start position to be the same for every shooter, you must fix the position of chair, and be as specific as possible when defining start position. Include 'as shown in photo' and a photo if your really want a specific position to start.

[aztecdriver]

If you want the start position to be the same for every shooter, you must fix the position of chair, and be as specific as possible when defining start position. Include 'as shown in photo' and a photo if your really want a specific position to start.

Or - as I've postulated, tell them to sit in it and put their hands somewhere and let them do whatever else they want inside a box with it. There is no competitive advantage to hamstringing people with a chair.

[lcs]

Some shooters are 5' tall and some are 6.5' tall, some weigh 90 lbs. and some weigh 350 lbs. The location of the chair can make a huge difference with each of these body types.

That is why (IMO) nailing down a chair or painting around the edges is not always the answer, unless the chair is a standalone prop. Once you introduce tables, the fixed position is not fair to all.

So you're saying since I'm 6' tall I should be able to raise a wall so I don't have to crouch since a 5' tall person doesn't have to crouch to shoot through a port? Everyone is different, everyone has different shooting styles, everyone has to deal with stages in their own way.

If you want the start position to be the same for every shooter, you must fix the position of chair, and be as specific as possible when defining start position. Include 'as shown in photo' and a photo if your really want a specific position to start.

Moving a chair back or forward 5 or 6 inches, adjusting for a competitors length of legs or girth, hardly equates to lifting walls.

Being that I am 6'3, walls/ports should be designed to present the same challenge to everyone. The challenge should be a shooting challenge not how limber I am. I could be wrong here (and I am wrong a lot) USPSA is about solving shooting problems. I would call your attention to USPSA rule # 1.1.6. .

[Skydiver]

[Yes, this is one of those infamous Skydiver scenarios, but I think it's good for discussion.]

If a (poorly written) WSB says "Start position: Sitting anywhere in the shooting area. Handgun ready and holstered. Procedure: On start signal, engage all targets as visible within the shooting area."

The chair is not nailed down. The ground is not marked around the chair.

As noted previously, disturbing the props is not allowed, so if the shooter wants to use the chair, they have to sit where the chair is. Are they are free to sit anywhere else on CoF without a chair since it satisfies the WSB's start position? Or can an RO compel the shooter to use the chair (because all the previous shooters used the chair)?

Or does the "Sitting anywhere in the shooting area" imply that the shooter is free to move the chair to their desired start location?

I forgot to tack on my opinion: Personally, I feel that the shooter should be able to move the chair, but after the previous discussion about not moving props, the shooter is free sit anywhere on the COF. If that location where they choose to start happens to be where the chair is, then good for them.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Skydiver