Resjudicata Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 How do you guys determine load length for your Cup loads? I'm trying everything to get some accuracy out of this barrel. I found out last week that the freebore is very long for a 9mm. The 9mm's can be loaded all the way out to 1.3" before starting to contact the lands. I'm just looking to get some opinions and experiences with load lengths. Especially for 9mm but I'm interested what folks do for any chambering. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allgoodhits Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 You may try a bullet with a longer driving band, or possibly a heavier buillet, which will have a longer driving band anyway. You are on the right track it seems. BTW was this a former IPSC gun running 9mm Major? I am not convinced with handgun cartridges the bullet jump or free travel matters that much as compared to other issues, such as quality of bullets, powder choice and quality of the loading process. Consider a revolver, especially with wadcutters, look how much bullet jump is there before they touch rifling. I have not used WSF powder in 9mm, but I have played with it in .38 Super at 4.6 - 4.8 grains. I am told by a pretty knowledgeable smith, shooter and loader that WSF behind a 124ish grain Jacketed is the best combo in 9mm. This load is used in Bullseye CMP matches and is reported to shoot sub 1 inch 50 yd groups in "high quality" Beretta M9s. MJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted September 29, 2011 Author Share Posted September 29, 2011 You may try a bullet with a longer driving band, or possibly a heavier buillet, which will have a longer driving band anyway. You are on the right track it seems. BTW was this a former IPSC gun running 9mm Major? I am not convinced with handgun cartridges the bullet jump or free travel matters that much as compared to other issues, such as quality of bullets, powder choice and quality of the loading process. Consider a revolver, especially with wadcutters, look how much bullet jump is there before they touch rifling. I have not used WSF powder in 9mm, but I have played with it in .38 Super at 4.6 - 4.8 grains. I am told by a pretty knowledgeable smith, shooter and loader that WSF behind a 124ish grain Jacketed is the best combo in 9mm. This load is used in Bullseye CMP matches and is reported to shoot sub 1 inch 50 yd groups in "high quality" Beretta M9s. MJ You said almost exactly what Mike at Schuemann said regarding the contact area of the bullet and that the leade should not matter. He also suggested trying .357 bullets and said that seating deeper may be better than loading long because feeding into the chamber may have less effect on relation of the bullet in the case. I'm going to try some more different loads with 125gr and 158 gr .357 bullets. I also have some WSF I can try. Right now I'm running the 115 gr bullets out at about 1200 fps in order to get any reasonable accuracy out of them. For an iron sight gun that's just overkill. And, they still aren't all that accurate. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allgoodhits Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I take it his suggestion to go to .357 bullets was because you advised him that you have already tried .356 diameter? If not, then try the Hornady HAP 9mm bullets. They are .356 and come in 121 or 125 gr. Very good bullets. Also ZERO offers .356 diameter bullets in several weights. Another option is lead bullets. I have excellent success with Precision Bullets (Black Bullets) 125gr .356 diameter. I use them in 9mm, .38 Super and .38 Spl using in the range of 4.0 - 4.5 grains of WST. The lighter charge in the 9mm and the heavier in the .38 Spl. Use caution in all reloading and especially if you are going to try a .357 jacketed bullet in a 9mm with fast powders. Not much case capacity when you seat a 158 gr slug in a 9mm brass. Not sure about that combo - CAREFUL. MJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) Chris, let me know if you want to try some of my loads.. .356 zero 121gr. Tim had ok luck with .357 125gr zero in his aet and loaded to the cannelure, not long at all. Edited September 30, 2011 by DWFAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 I'm going to try some loaded long and some loaded short. We'll see if it makes any difference. Jeremy, I'll shoot you an email or something next week about the .356's. Also, thanks for the loan of the magazines. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I would try and stay with established loads. The 9mm works really well within a certain pressure and bullet size. I don't think you will be successful loading way out. A LOT of research as been done on this, and the best accuracy seems to come from a medium speed powder. I would make up some test ammo at 1.080 with ammo running 1150-1180fps. Do the same at 1.110, and the same at 1.120 as well. You will be within .02gr difference on the loads at the different OALs. Also make sure you are using match federal primers. This is information I got from Bullseye shooters and Bob Marvel, who builds a lot of their guns that shoot incredibly well........ Your barrel will shoot, or should shoot .355 bullets really well. I can't think if it is a newer barrel that you will need to go to .356 yet. The powders that have shown best accuracy are VV330, VV320, Titegroup, W231, and PowerPistol. IMHO Powerpistol is loud and nasty, but it will shoot. I hope to be able to do a report on the newer Zero bullets later this fall to show groups as well. I have heard good things, but it will be hard to get me away from XTPs...... Good luck, and let me know if I can help in any way! DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 I would try and stay with established loads. The 9mm works really well within a certain pressure and bullet size. I don't think you will be successful loading way out. A LOT of research as been done on this, and the best accuracy seems to come from a medium speed powder. I would make up some test ammo at 1.080 with ammo running 1150-1180fps. Do the same at 1.110, and the same at 1.120 as well. You will be within .02gr difference on the loads at the different OALs. Also make sure you are using match federal primers. This is information I got from Bullseye shooters and Bob Marvel, who builds a lot of their guns that shoot incredibly well........ Your barrel will shoot, or should shoot .355 bullets really well. I can't think if it is a newer barrel that you will need to go to .356 yet. The powders that have shown best accuracy are VV330, VV320, Titegroup, W231, and PowerPistol. IMHO Powerpistol is loud and nasty, but it will shoot. I hope to be able to do a report on the newer Zero bullets later this fall to show groups as well. I have heard good things, but it will be hard to get me away from XTPs...... Good luck, and let me know if I can help in any way! DougC Originally the load I was using in my old 5" AET barrel was 4.4 gr of Titegroup and 115gr Zero JHP at 1.090" OAL. It shot really well (within the X ring at 50). When I went to the 6" AET the groups went out to between 6"-10" at 50 with very little consistency. I got a little bit better groups adding enough powder to run the 115 gr Zero JHP out to at least 1200 fps. But, this is a stout load with a metallic gun. I tried the same speed a with a 1.170" OAL and maybe got a little better. But, it is still not very consistent. Here is the info on the two barrels: 5" AET bull barrel 9mm chamber as received from Schuemann. OAL able to be 1.20" max 6" AET bushing barrel 9mm chamber as received from Schuemann. OAL able to be 1.30" max I slugged the freebore/leade in both barrels and they are both .355". I should be able to find a load that is accurate out of this 6" barrel without running such a hot load. I don't need to worry about the mover leade since I have a mover front sight on the gun. I just don't see any difference between these barrels that could cause a change other than the freebore/leade difference. But, Mike (and everyone else) doesn't think this should matter. I'm just at a loss. I have a bunch of different loads (bullet weight, bullet diameter, powder charge, OAL) to try sometime over the next week to see what I can do with this. It's getting a bit exasperating. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I would have a serious talk with your gunsmith about barrel fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 I would have a serious talk with your gunsmith about barrel fit. My gunsmith is a bastard and I stopped talking to him a long time ago. But, since you bring it up that is something that should be mentioned. The barrel fit is good in the areas of hood, lower and upper lugs as well as at the muzzle. The 6" barrel has a cone style comp blank fitted to it so that it runs in a 5" slide. The 6" barrel fits just the same as the 5" did when I changed it out. Both barrels were fit by me. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allgoodhits Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 See if you can find someone with a barrel tester. Your known good load for you 5" gun should should good in the 6" gun, since they are both the same AET set-up. Or are they? Schuemann has played with 1-16 twist, 1-32 twist and I think he has settled in with 1-24 twist on his AET barrels. Any of these twists should shoot 115's pretty well, assuming all else is good. I load 9mms 1.100" +/- .025" depending on bullets. Doug Carden's advice was sound. MJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Chris, hang in there. Change only one thing at a time....trust me on this.... DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) My 1:24 AET wont shoot 115's as good as .356 121 gr. Heck, ive got a 147gr Moly coated lead group that beats 90% of the 115gr .355 bullets ive tried. Same with 3 other AET guns build at the same time. My best groups are at 1.130 and a HAP 121, but I shoot the zero 121gr .356. It also wont shoot the 121 or 115 under 1170fps. Where's Kevin.. Figured he would be in here saying to ditch the AET.. Ive got 2 kkm 1:32 bbls sitting in the box, waiting for me to make up my mind to rebarrel my gun. Edited October 1, 2011 by DWFAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) I am with Kevin, even though he has yet to chip in. I have a pair of non AET Schuemann barrel, short chambered especially so I can decide what I will go with 9 or Super. They are way over size all round the front end and will take some fitting. If I go 9 I can load to sensible OAL. 1.15" with the new Zero. BTW, get the new Zero. I have done some comparrison, not full and proper, but when I get 1.25" out of a barrel that is 100K old I am happy. Never used the HAP, as they are way too expensive down here, I can't say between the two. The only thing that has shot better in my gun is the Sierra 115gr. Also look at going to 125gr, the longer bearing surface may be what that barrel needs. The barrel in my daughters gun really does like the 125gr over 115gr. I use 4.0gr TG with the 125gr in 9mm and they work pretty well. Edited October 1, 2011 by gm iprod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Thanks for the vote of confidence. So here goes. How can a barrel that comes pre-chambered be fitted in a slide and not mess up the chambering. As soon as the hood length is changed the chamber length is changed. IMO AET barrels are garbage. (There you go, Jeremy) I had one that shot great and I'm talking 6 shots at 50 in 1/2". The problem was that the accuracy didn't last long. The fluted chamber was also a nuisance. With the loads that we shoot in A/P the brass doesn't get worked hard enough to expand and seal off. That would be a different story with major which is where I feel that these barrels are more suited. All of the barrels that I buy are short chambered. I'm currently running KKM barrels. I give my gunsmith a sized case that is trimmed to the length that I want. After he has fit the barrel, he then cuts the chamber so that the case sits exactly flush with the barrel hood. I then get the bullet that I want and play with different lengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Kevin, That is exactly the way I have my chambers done. Both the better handgun builders down here do it the same way. If only I could get them to do more work for us. Both work full time not being gunsmiths. Can't make a living out of guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) Okay, I've been fiddling with the barrels. I checked and rechecked the chamber depth of both the 5" barrel and the 6" barrel as well as measure my Starline brass. The 5" barrel chamber measured from the hood is .749" and the 6" barrel is .7475". My starline brass fluctuates a bit around .748". So, I'm thinking that the slightly shorter chamber of the 6" barrel may be an issue since it can be a bit shorter than the brass? If so, I just need to find someone local who has a 9mm chamber reamer and deepen it very slightly. What depth should I be looking for? Thanks for all the help and suggestions. Chris ETA: I found the SAAMI spec for the depth from the breach face as .754". My breach face to hood spacing is .003" using a feeler gauge. So, that would make me think the chamber depth from the hood should be .751". Right? Or, should I go just a bit shorter and try it? Edited October 2, 2011 by Resjudicata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantJ Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Chris I have used 9 forever and have always found it to be fairly forgiving. That said I have little experience with the 1911 platform, just enough to be dangerous. We use Starline Brass Winchester Primers around 4.1gr of Tightgroup pushing one of the New Zero 115's loaded on a Dillon 1050 to an OAL of around 1.125". We use enough crimp to leave a noticeable ring on the bullet when pulled and get groups on a good day around 1.25" at 50 off the ground no sand bag. Remember the 9 headspaces off the mouth of the case not the rim, that said I doubt that will be the cause of your issues. Warren has a 9mm chamber reamer and also a set of go/no go gauges, they will tell you right away if you are in the ball park. If you are confident that the barrel fit is OK, I would check the crown, an often forgotten part of the puzzle that can cause all sorts of strange things. Remember this is the last part of the barrel the bullet sees on its way out, if not right you will never get a good group out of it. There may be nothing more that a small bur in one of the groves or the angle may be off just a hair, it is certainly worth a look and again Warren could get that sorted in a few minutes. Hope this helps some. GrantJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Chris I have used 9 forever and have always found it to be fairly forgiving. That said I have little experience with the 1911 platform, just enough to be dangerous. We use Starline Brass Winchester Primers around 4.1gr of Tightgroup pushing one of the New Zero 115's loaded on a Dillon 1050 to an OAL of around 1.125". We use enough crimp to leave a noticeable ring on the bullet when pulled and get groups on a good day around 1.25" at 50 off the ground no sand bag. Remember the 9 headspaces off the mouth of the case not the rim, that said I doubt that will be the cause of your issues. Warren has a 9mm chamber reamer and also a set of go/no go gauges, they will tell you right away if you are in the ball park. If you are confident that the barrel fit is OK, I would check the crown, an often forgotten part of the puzzle that can cause all sorts of strange things. Remember this is the last part of the barrel the bullet sees on its way out, if not right you will never get a good group out of it. There may be nothing more that a small bur in one of the groves or the angle may be off just a hair, it is certainly worth a look and again Warren could get that sorted in a few minutes. Hope this helps some. GrantJ Grant, The crown has been cut twice by our friend here locally. It looks good. I took the gun out for some 25yd indoor time with the multiple different loads. Nothing grouped any better than my current 115 gr load using Titegroup. The different bullet weights and charge amounts ended up with almost identical group size. (BTW, the 4.0 Titegroup with 125gr JHP as well as the 3.5 Titegroup with 158gr JHP felt very soft and nice. Those may get further checked). After this I borrowed a chamber finish reamer and Go/No Go gauges from Jeremy. The Go gauge would not go. So, I used the reamer and took the chamber from .7475" to .750" as measured from the hood. That along with the hood to breach face measurement of .003" brings the chamber depth to .753", just .001" less than SAAMI spec. The Go gauge will just close and the No Go will not even come close. So, I believe the chamber is where it should be now. Now I will try my 115gr loads with 4.4 and 4.7 of Titegroup and see how they do. I'll check these at 1.090" out to 1.69" to see if the length has any effect. I'll start with my existing 115gr loads as a known quantity first to see if just the chamber depth will make any difference. Then check the different grain weights and lengths. Chris ETA: I need to find a way to take my reloader to the range with me so I can run a batch of loads and test, then run some more. Edited October 3, 2011 by Resjudicata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griz Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 My breach face to hood spacing is .003" using a feeler gauge. I think that may be your problem... Everything I read from accuracy focused smiths says that breechface to hood should be .000" Kevin probably runs his a little tighter than that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) My breach face to hood spacing is .003" using a feeler gauge. I think that may be your problem... Everything I read from accuracy focused smiths says that breechface to hood should be .000" Kevin probably runs his a little tighter than that! Wow, and the guns with zero hood clearance run? I'm surprised. Seems like the hood would bind on the breach face. I've seen that on several guns. Especially on open guns running light recoil springs. Chris ETA: Just out of curiosity I check it again. I noticed that if I pushed on the slide the .002" feeler gauge would stick and not pull out cleanly. I wonder if it's possible that with my short chamber some rounds may have held the slide back a thousandths or so? If so I would expect that to change the barrel angle and have a negative effect on accuracy? Edited October 4, 2011 by Resjudicata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Chris, I can see why you are at a loss as to why the gun won't shoot. Looks like you have tried about everything. A few things to double check. Slide Stop- You should have 2 track marks on the slide stop where the feet are rubbing. Make sure they are even. Also check that the link is not holding the barrel up into lock. If you take the barrel out and insert the slide stop in the link the ss should sit on the feet and not be pushed off of the feet by the link. Barrel torquing- bull barrels cannot be so tight that they bend the barrel when it is in lock. Same thing goes for a bushing. The bull barrels have to have a taper so that the barrel will tilt downward when the slide is pulled back. Wish you would have showed it to me at the regional. Some of this is hard to explain in words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 Chris, I can see why you are at a loss as to why the gun won't shoot. Looks like you have tried about everything. A few things to double check. Slide Stop- You should have 2 track marks on the slide stop where the feet are rubbing. Make sure they are even. Also check that the link is not holding the barrel up into lock. If you take the barrel out and insert the slide stop in the link the ss should sit on the feet and not be pushed off of the feet by the link. Barrel torquing- bull barrels cannot be so tight that they bend the barrel when it is in lock. Same thing goes for a bushing. The bull barrels have to have a taper so that the barrel will tilt downward when the slide is pulled back. Wish you would have showed it to me at the regional. Some of this is hard to explain in words. The slide stop has good even marks and the feet ride the slide stop fully during lockup. I've seen where the link has been misused to push the barrel up as well. I make sure when fitting the feet and selecting the link that this doesn't happen. I've also read a lot about barrel "springing"(?) or "barrel torquing". I checked that when fitting as well. I'm going to take it out and shoot Wednesday night. I'm in hope that the short chamber was just a little too short and the case head dragged on the breach face a little too much to be overcome by the light recoil spring causing slightly different lockup position depending on the length of the brass. We'll see. What do you think about hood clearance? 0.000", 0.001", 0.002"? I would assume that as long as the cartridge case isn't bound between the breach and the chamber that a small hood clearance shouldn't have a drastically negative effect. Thanks for the suggestions. Please keep them coming. I'm willing to check anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I know its the interwebs and all, but quite a few big name bullseye 'smiths on 1911forum claim .000 or .001 is what they strive for on the hood clearance.. I'll measure mine this week if I can find my feeler gauges. (not that my gun is super accurate..) I think Ron and or Mike has a ransom, might be worth trying that for testing at 50. Are your sights tight ? I searched for a stringing issue for over a week that was traced to a lose scope.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 I know its the interwebs and all, but quite a few big name bullseye 'smiths on 1911forum claim .000 or .001 is what they strive for on the hood clearance.. I'll measure mine this week if I can find my feeler gauges. (not that my gun is super accurate..) I think Ron and or Mike has a ransom, might be worth trying that for testing at 50. Are your sights tight ? I searched for a stringing issue for over a week that was traced to a lose scope.. That's what you get for cheating and using a scope. I have my sights duct taped onto the slide. So, they are definitely not loose. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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