The IPSC Box

[spook]

* I interpret the moving of the slide to get the gun to fit in the box as a deviation of the prescribed condition.

This is exactly what I would not accept. D2 item 16 refers to 8.1.2.1 and the gun was in that condition. Those are the facts. Leave out interpetations when they go against your gutfeeling. That's what rules are for.

If a rule states a gun must comply in three ways and it does, then why would you think up another condition so the gun fails the test? First thing they taught me in Law school is to ditch the gut feelings when it comes to rule based decisions. Especially when the rules are clear.

Spook,

the fact is: your gun doesn't fit the box? The dark side of IPSC shooting will heartily accept you... 

But it did fit

[Garfield]

Spook,

You're welcome to disagree with me, I'm just a mere RO, but since the RM of that match (Kees/Yoda) has already moved the shooter to Open *and* stated his reasoning in this very thread, I think we're finished here. Next time bring $100,- and file a 3rd party protest !

And moreover, why do you keep on refusing to accept my answer whereas that of Kees (Yoda) and John (GvU) are exactly the same ?

And as you said:

An out of battery gun, not ready to fire obviously does not comply.

In my book moving the slide of a gun backwards puts the gun out of battery, wouldn't you agree ?

I really fail to understand you .

Let's have a beer next time we meet and maybe we can agree upon this then ?

[Garfield]

... in this pic DALMAS

Hey next time warn me before you unexpectedly lure me into watching that nice pic of us in Quickborn !!

[NPSA 86-259]

I was very pleased to see the gentlemen beiing checked at the Rilland Bath match, I hope the Duch IROA/NROI will keep on checking the shooters because recently it appeared some guys don't have their gear and ammo in the right order.

Spook, your friend has been warned by this checkup and I hope for him he will change his gear.

[Dalmas]

[Hey next time warn me before you unexpectedly lure me into watching that nice pic of us in Quickborn !!

Ehh yeah ohh i will.......NOT

[spook]

Arvid, Yoda and GvU are discussing the size of the box and tolerances etc. Those subjects are clear to me and IMO have nothing to do with the subject. The core question here is: "Is a gun in ready condition (ex. 8.1.2.1) when the slide is moved back so little, that the gun could still fire?" If the question can be answered with a yes, then the gun fits the box and if the answer is no, it doesn't. It is that simple.

BUT, if an RO, be it you, me Yoda or Vince will start interpreting rules their own way, things will get unfair. If I would have accepted a gun like that and you wouldn't, that would be unfair. If RM 1 on match 1 would have accepted it and RM 2 on match 2 wouldn't, it would not be fair.

I'll make it very simple. Can you give me one rule or argument extracted from the rulebook (no personal opinions and/or interpretations) that says why the shooter should have been moved to open?

[Garfield]

Spook,

This is getting us nowhere.

The RM has ruled and nobody filed a 3rd party protest.

I have said what there is to say, and I am not going to repeat myself here, so I am quitting this discussion as I feel it is getting pointless.

Spook, your friend has been warned by this checkup and I hope for him he will change his gear.

Arie, the shooter has already confirmed that he started filing his Magwell, although he was quite pleased with his 78% in Open .

[Skywalker]

I'll make it very simple. Can you give me one rule or argument extracted from the rulebook (no personal opinions and/or interpretations) that says why the shooter should have been moved to open?

Spook,

I'll give you a hint:

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer

cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

16. A handgun in its ready condition (See Section 8.1), but unloaded and with an empty magazine inserted, must fit wholly within the confines of a box which has internal dimensions of 225mm x 150mm x 45mm (tolerance of +1 mm, -0 mm). Note that all magazines must comply, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

I'm sorry to say that, universally speaking, retracting the slide (of whatever amount of travel you wish) doesn't place the hammer (or striker in the case of a Glock) to "fully down" position, thus the gun is not complying with the ready condition.

As I stated earlier, you might find tolerant ROs that will allow you to do that to fit your gun in the box, but according to the literal wording of the rules, this is not allowed. Note that lowering the leaf of a rear sight or pushing up the magazine to fit the box doesn't interfere with the above cited ready condition, hence this can be allowed.

[Vince Pinto]

Sky,

If a Glock is slightly "jammed" to fit inside the box, and this results in the slide retracting by "juuust a millimeter" as stated in the opening post, is the gun still de-cocked (and therefore in compliance with Rule 8.1.2.2.)?

[spook]

Spook,

This is getting us nowhere.

The RM has ruled and nobody filed a 3rd party protest.

I have said what there is to say, and I am not going to repeat myself here, so I am quitting this discussion as I feel it is getting pointless.

Again with the feelings. Feel free to quit this discussion. I am not trying to win anything here. I want some insight on these rules.

Sky, Vince asked the question I've been looking for. If the competitor's gun is in compliance with the rule 8.1.2, the gun fits. If some people have a problem with that, the rule needs to be edited and re-written. Don't you think?

Something like:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked, slide fully forward

[Skywalker]

Spook, Vince,

speaking of a traditional double-action, I mean one with hammer and firing pin, as soon as you retract the slide the hammer is no longer fully down or decocked, thus it's no longer in its ready condition.

Speaking of a Glock, I'm not sure what happens.

I know that retracting the slide partially cocks the striker, while traction on the trigger accomplishes the last part of cocking the striker and releases it.

I guess that, if the first part of the above sentence holds true, as soon as you retract the slide, the striker starts to cock.

For sure, the Rulebook misses a definition of ready condition for striker-fired guns a-la Glock (but now also S&W/Walther P99, Steyr M9 and so on).

[spook]

Isn't a Glock striker partially cocked when the gun is in ready condition? If so, I'd say a Glock would fall under 8.1.2.1 rather than 8.1.2.2

Spook,

I'll give you a hint:

QUOTE 

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer

cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

QUOTE 

16. A handgun in its ready condition (See Section 8.1), but unloaded and with an empty magazine inserted, must fit wholly within the confines of a box which has internal dimensions of 225mm x 150mm x 45mm (tolerance of +1 mm, -0 mm). Note that all magazines must comply, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

Can you see where that rule fails if a Glock is always partially cocked in ready condition?

[spook]

For sure, the Rulebook misses a definition of ready condition for striker-fired guns a-la Glock (but now also S&W/Walther P99, Steyr M9 and so on).

I think that's a very logical conclusion.

[Vince Pinto]

Spook,

See Q14 here. Glocks are classified by IPSC as being "double-action" because they comply with Rule 8.1.5.2 so, as a result, Rule 8.1.2.2 applies in respect of the Gun Ready Condition.

Anyway, I'm done here because I've got nothing more to add.

[mai]

Hi Vince

From rule 6.2.3 , Jan 2004 edition. It is clearly say that the shooter must be checked his equipment and notified his division by match officer. If Spook’s friend didn't get this process, can he insist to be production shooter?

Mai

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Mai,

Rule 6.2.3 says the competitor "must declare one Division". Rule 6.2.5 provides a remedy in the unlikely (but possible) event that the competitor fails to do so, in which case the RM determines the applicable Division.

Rule 6.2.5.1 deals with another issue, namely the competitor declares "X" Division but, during the match, we discover that his equipment does not comply. In such cases, there's no mercy - the competitor is moved to Open Division. If he's already in Open, he shoots the match for no score. This was done intentionally to prevent people from, say, declaring Production Division on the basis that the worst case scenario would be a transfer to Standard.

This default "move to Open" rule obviates any possibility that the RM could be accused of favoritism in believing one competitor but not another. Sure, occasionally it's an honest mistake, but an honest competitor will learn a lesson and he won't make the same mistake twice.

[NPSA 86-259]

If Spook’s friend didn't get this process, can he insist to be production shooter?

If he had the possibility to switch to production, the gun would be disapproved because its sights, modell and trigger pressure. And of course the mag well which is not allowed in production. Spook's friend has been warned by his other friend A3 before, so Spook's friend was not really surprised.

[MasterLefty]

The correct way to manufacture the box is to have it built as a No-Go gauge.

The box should be built to the maximum dimensions of 226x151x46 and the tolerance for all dimensions is +0 / -10% of the allowable tolerance (which would be - 0.1mm).

I would also have the manufacturer provide a certificate of accuracy that indicates that the box and all measurement devices used to perform the measurements are traceable to ISO standards (or in the U.S. traceable to ANSI Z540).

Kenny

[mai]

Yes Vince, I agree with you for the rule 6.2.5 , also the following rules and commences you gave.

But, what I mean by the rule 6.2.3 is before the match begins, the shooter should declare division, and the match officer should check all equipment. If one or more of the equipment isn’t fit to that division, the shooter may have opportunity to fix his equipment before making an attempt the COF. Let say, spook’s friend may used rock or concrete floor as a grinding pad to reduce the size of his mag well, and the gun will perfectly fit to standard division. But, if none of the officer do the prior equipment checking, I think that it is not quite fare to the shooter.

NPSA 86-259: I posted wrong word, I mean to post “ can he insist to be standard shooter? “. Anyway he couldn’t.

Mai

[Vince Pinto]

But, what I mean by the rule 6.2.3 is before the match begins, the shooter should declare division, and the match officer should check all equipment. If one or more of the equipment isn’t fit to that division, the shooter may have opportunity to fix his equipment before making an attempt the COF.

Correct, and that's exactly what we did at WSXIII in South Africa. An equipment check was part of the registration process, and a match official checked everybody's equipment before the match began.

But, if none of the officer do the prior equipment checking, I think that it is not quite fare to the shooter.

I totally disagree. The onus for compliance with a declared division rests with the competitor. The people running the match are called Range Officers, not Baby-Sitters.

In the absence of an organised "pre-check" (e.g. most matches), competitors should be proactive by asking a Match Official to check their equipment before they fire a shot, so that corrective action can be taken beforehand, if necessary, rather than risking divisional reclassification during the match.