DQ story

[ivanhu]

This weekend I was officiating, and on my stage, I had to DQ someone. To start with, I actually made a mistake that I'm going to share - perhaps it'll help you to avoid the similar mistake one day.

Stage construction: a chair and a table, and approx. 1.5 meters forward a barricade with an opening in its middle.

Starting position: sitting on the chair, gun is in the briefcase, briefcase closed, hands are on the knees. (Since not declared otherwise, the gun is in ready condition).

The targets were visible from the two sides of the barricade, and through the opening.

The shooter appeared, and I gave him the LAMR command. He loaded the gun, put it in the briefcase, closed the briefcase, and sat down. After a few seconds he stood up, and started a test run, practicising how he's going to shoot the stage, so he run to the right corner of the barricade, then towards the opening, when I cried stop. (It was some five or six steps, and happened very quickly.) He came back, and sat down again. At this point, I memorized that I have to give him a warning, for leaving the start position without permission. So I continued with the command chain, and let him shoot the stage. After scoring, but before signing the score sheet, I told him that he left the starting position - and at that time, I realized that he actually ran before the loaded gun. Therefore, I declared a DQ. The shooter was going to argue, but I told him that he should argue with the RM, and I must notify the RM anyhow.

To finish the story, the DQ was upheld - the shooter not just run before the loaded gun, but also was farther than 1 meters away from the loaded gun during the COF. The shooter protested that he just stepped to the right to check the targets, and didn't run before the gun, but the assistant RO saw him to run before the gun, too - and whatever the CRO and the RO of the stage states concordantly is true for the RM.

Were I realize earlier that the shooter run before the loaded gun, I would have spared some hot debate, and bad feelings. Why didn't I realized it earlier? That I cannot tell absolutely sure, but I guess it was because the gun was out of sight, in the closed briefcase. And this is the conclusion that I was going to share with you all. I've learnt from the case, and now the story is yours.

[pwalker]

Sounds like a case of bad stage procedure writing to me.

Where was the brief case to be placed after the loaded gun was placed inside it? On the desk?

For this kind of start, I think that I would always specify a condition 2 (empty chamber) or condition 3 (empty chamber, empty magazine well) start procedure. Apart from the unusual but possible DQ that you had to call, it too easy for a competitor to fumble and AD when pulling a ready gun from a brief case.

Regards

Peter

[lynn jones]

hi ivanhu,

first where in the rule book does it say you can't walk in front of a loaded gun? sweeping intails having your hand on the gun. will the gun go off by its self? granted, it doesn't seem safe and the course of fire is tricky. in real life, you keep a loaded gun in a glove compartment of your car or trunk, a desk drawer, or in your pocket. why do you think this is unsafe? i think your DQ was wrong.

IMHO,

lynn

[Vince Pinto]

Lynn,

To finish the story, the DQ was upheld - the shooter not just run before the loaded gun, but also was farther than 1 meters away from the loaded gun during the COF.

It's not sweeping but see Rule 10.5.3.2.

I also fully agree with Peter Walker's comment that the written stage briefing should've required the gun be prepared with an empty chamber. The risk of a competitor fumbling and discharging a gun with a loaded chamber when drawing it under time pressure from the briefcase is unacceptably high.

Having said that, I must also withdraw Peter's milk 'n' cookie privileges for tonight for using the dreaded "Condition X" terms to describe the desired gun ready condition. Those expressions are not recognised in IPSC because they only apply to 1911-genre guns (and many people don't know what they mean).

[Skywalker]

Looks like master Vince was faster and more effective.

Alas.

Lynn,

I guess, according to IPSC rulebook, the DQ was lawful:

8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire"....

So, the COF was already started, since the competitor had loaded his gun and placed it according to the required Start position.

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his firearm or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

The competitor had placed his gun "on other stable object", and shouldn't have been DQed, provided

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 1 meter (3.28 feet) of the handgun at all times, ...

He left (according to Ivan's report) the gun to run to the right side of the barricade, then to the opening. If those places were more than 1 m from the gun, DQ.

Note that this is the first and main DQable offense in this case.

But, moreover

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping) other than while drawing from a holster or re-holstering.

Then again, if the muzzle of the (loaded) handgun, covered the competitor's body, while it wasn't in holster (the only safe retaining device for a loaded handgun, IMO), or during drawing or holstering, this another DQable offense.

12.5 Glossary

Sweeping .......................... Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person's body (see Rule 10.5.5).

Maybe I'm not so proficient in english, but in the sweeping definition it's nowhere explicitly or implicitly stated that the gun has to be in the competitor's hand for this action; thus I'd assume that if it was anywhere, and it pointed towards the competitor's body, except for provisions made by rule 10.5.5, it's still a DQ.

Ivan,

I guess your only (and not so small) mistake was not stopping immediately the competitor while faulting a couple of safety rules, but I can understand it's not so easy to do it as to say it.

[Vince Pinto]

Maybe I'm not so proficient in english, but in the sweeping definition it's nowhere explicitly or implicitly stated that the gun has to be in the competitor's hand for this action;

Although you're quite correct in your literal reading of the current rules, the intent is that for sweeping to occur, the gun must be in the hand(s). To that end, the Rules Committee is presently considering the following interpretation under Rule 11.8:

Sweeping - Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point at any part of any person's body while the firearm is actually being held in the hand(s).

I'm confident that the above interpretation will be adopted and will be published on the IPSC website within the month.

[Skywalker]

Vince,

I acknowledge that, but I wonder, is this really what you want to do?

I mean, you feel it's safe (for the sport, I know for you it's perfectly safe... ) if I load my gun (cocked 'n' locked, since I shoot Standard), then place it on a stable prop and, without ever going farther than 1m from it, place myself proudly in front of its muzzle?

I guess this should be a safety issue: no loaded gun muzzle shall ever be allowed to point towards anybody in any case (held in hand or not), except for provisions made by rule 10.5.5. (what do the rules say about pointing the muzzle towards the RO, BTW? According to the "sweeping" definition it's not an offense... )

IMHO.

[ivanhu]

I guess your only (and not so small) mistake was not stopping immediately the competitor while faulting a couple of safety rules, but I can understand it's not so easy to do it as to say it.

Apparently. That was because, as soon as the gun was placed in the briefcase and the briefcase was closed, my attention was shifted from the gun towards the shooter. That's exactly the lesson I've learnt - always, I mean always, even if the gun is hidden somewhere, the biggest part of my attention should be on the gun.

[Vince Pinto]

Sky,

Conventional wisdom (and physics?) tells us that a loaded gun will never discharge unless there's physical contact with it. For me, the higher priority is removing the exemption for sweeping while drawing from a holster (Rule 10.5.5) but, so far, I've been unable to generate support for removal of the subject exemption.

And as far as sweeping an RO (or spectator) is concerned, note the words "any person's body" in the glossary definition of sweeping.

[Skywalker]

as far as sweeping an RO (or spectator) is concerned, note the words "any person's body" in the glossary definition of sweeping.

I too would be happy if no exceptions were made to the sweeping offence. Maybe I can use the Force to support your battle?

[vincent]

It seems to me that this is not really a rule problem or a stage problem but a process problem. From a safety position, the shooter should not have been allowed to walk the stage after he had loaded the gun. If he had wanted to check targets that should have been done before loading the gun.

My personal opinion is that pulling a loaded gun from a briefcase is not an unsafe part of a stage. The shooter should be able to manage the safeties and trigger of their weapon appropriately. If needed the case could be secured to the table to reduce the chance that opening the lid would spill the gun, but this is really a prop issue and not a fundamental problem with the concept.

[ivanhu]

My personal opinion is that pulling a loaded gun from a briefcase is not an unsafe part of a stage.  The shooter should be able to manage the safeties and trigger of their weapon appropriately.  If needed the case could be secured to the table to reduce the chance that opening the lid would spill the gun, but this is really a prop issue and not a fundamental problem with the concept.

Spending two days on that stage, let me object.

To start with, the "table" was securely fixed to the ground, and the briefcase was securely fixed to the table. However, the lid of the briefcase was able to open up to 90 degrees only. When the shooters, in a hurry, threw up the lid, it stopped and comed back with quite a speed, and it might hit the hand and/or the gun of the shooter. If you as the stage designer/builder have a choice, never do that, and choose a briefcase that opens fully. As a matter of fact, there was another DQ because the lid came back quite heavily and as the consequence, the gun was fallen.

Second, some kept the lid open with their weak hand - that's a potential sweeping trap which IMHO is better to be prevented, and even a fully opening briefcase won't prevent that.

Third, since the distance from the table to the barricade was rather small, the RO was unable to follow the shooter close enough sometimes - and he cannot tell in advance whether he'll be able to remain close or not. (That table blocks the RO's way quite effectively). Fortunately, there was enough room between the table and the chair, but I had to watch my step many times - which of course removed some attention from the gun, and that's exactly what we shouldn't ever allow.

Well, perhaps it's not the fundamental problem with the concept, but I'll build these kind of stages very differently in the future, that's sure.

[Flexmoney]

1.1.1 Safety – IPSC competitions must be designed, constructed and conducted with due consideration to safety.

The Four Laws of Gun Control*

If you learn nothing else from practical shooting, learn the four laws that are the foundation of all safe gun handling. Remember...

Someday you will have an accidental discharge!

The only question are when, where, and how. If you are obeying the four laws of gun control when it happens, it will be scary. If you're not, it could be tragic.

- The Gun is ALWAYS Loaded.

- NEVER point the gun at something you are not prepared to destroy.

- Always be sure of your target and what is behind it.

- Keep your finger off the triger until you sights are on the target.

This is a no-brainer. The stage desinger missed this possibility...and the shooter let themselves get distracted by the game, and put himself down-range, in front of a loaded gun.

ivanhu, thanks for bringing this topic up. This is a tricky situation that could easily get under the radar of just about everybody. Good lessons to be learned here.

* from the USPSA rulebook (foreword)

[Garfield]

Hi Ivan,

Funny that we have met in person without realizing it ....

It appears that we have both been on the same match in Komarno, I was CRO on stage 16, the "Jungle Lane" Long Course stage

Sky: I have met Irene and asked her to give you my regards, so you got them coming from Irene

[Skywalker]

Sky: I have met Irene and asked her to give you my regards, so you got them coming from Irene 

Garfield, I can tell you met Irene in person by the look of your avatar: it's got eyes wide open...

Thanks for regards (but you could have told her to kiss me... ).

[Vince Pinto]

If you are obeying the four laws of gun control when it happens, it will be scary.  If you're not, it could be tragic.

This statement is oxymoronic. If you were actually obeying the "four laws of gun control", your finger wouldn't be on the trigger in the first place, so it would be impossible to have an accidental (or unintentional) discharge

[Garfield]

Thanks for regards (but you could have told her to kiss me... ).

Grin !

Wait until you see the pictures of my range crew

The MD and RM had quite some laughs when they assigned three nice young girls to my stage, bearing in mind that I was away from home for a week and my wife is pregnant for 26 weeks now

(pics will be up later today if all goes well, just watch my signature)

[Flexmoney]

If you are obeying the four laws of gun control when it happens, it will be scary.  If you're not, it could be tragic.

This statement is oxymoronic. If you were actually obeying the "four laws of gun control", your finger wouldn't be on the trigger in the first place, so it would be impossible to have an accidental (or unintentional) discharge

Trusting that the "impossible" can't happen is the first step in the broken chain of events that causes accidents.

[Jim Norman]

For me, the higher priority is removing the exemption for sweeping while drawing from a holster (Rule 10.5.5) but, so far, I've been unable to generate support for removal of the subject exemption.

Vince,

Am I to understand that you would disallow the wearing of holsters were the muzzle can in any way cross any part of anyone's body while the gun is being drawn? Do you realize that you would virtually eliminate any type of draw from any type of holster? We would all be starting by picking up an unloaded gun from a table. What's next? No shooting while moving? Maybe ten rounds at a black circle at 25 meters or yards? Fired in say 10 minutes?

If I read what you say correctly, if the gun can point at my foot while in the holster, it would be a DQ for sweeping as soon as I start to draw? I am assuming that you are trying to prevent a sweep after the gun starts to be drawn from the holster. I am not sure that that will ever be practical.

Consider a shooter that is leaving the start position and drawing on the move. As he steps forward, his leg or foot will cross the muzzle. Do we DQ him? Or do we now require the shooter to stand perfectly still while slowly removing his gun from the holster?

Depending upon the stance of a competitor, as an example, if he were to stand slightly splay-footed and draw even slowly from a "Dropped and Off-Set" holster he could pass the muzzle ever so slightly across his toes. Match DQ? By your requested removal of the exemption, Yes!

A CR-Speed or similar holster in front of the hipbone, is a virtual impossibility to draw without a minor sweep.

Jim Norman

(admin edit: I removed the last part of this post as it was "off topic" and questioned anothers "agenda".)

Edited May 12, 2004 by Flexmoney

[ivanhu]

Vince,

Am I to understand that you would disallow the wearing of holsters were the muzzle can in any way cross any part of anyone's body while the gun is being drawn? Do you realize that you would virtually eliminate any type of draw from any type of holster?

Nay, Jim, just put it on your side, and you'll be safe and never be DQed because of that.

If I read what you say correctly, if the gun can point at my foot while in the holster, it would be a DQ for sweeping as soon as I start to draw?

Well, IMHO we shouldn't allow the gun to point at one's body ever in the first place.

Consider a shooter that is leaving the start position and drawing on the move. As he steps forward, his leg or foot will cross the muzzle.

It won't, as long as he wears the holster on his side.

A CR-Speed or similar holster in front of the hipbone, is a virtual impossibility to draw without a minor sweep.

Apparently - but why should we allow to wear them in front of the hipbone?

Edited May 12, 2004 by Flexmoney

[Skywalker]

A CR-Speed or similar holster in front of the hipbone, is a virtual impossibility to draw without a minor sweep.

Apparently - but why should we allow to wear them in front of the hipbone?

Because in Open Division the rules allow to do it.

[vincent]

This is the exact kind of stuff that makes me cautious about making blanket statements like "drawing from a briefcase is an unsafe action". It is not unsafe as long as the prop is chosen correctly and the shooters use their pistols correctly. It's the same with most things we do in practical shooting (drawing from a holster, shooting on the move, switching from strong hand to weak hand, etc). Unless we want to turn our sport into Olympic Air Pistol then we must assume the shooter can live up to their safety responsibilities. As soon as we start down the road of trying to make the courses "intrinsically safe" we are moving toward the ruin of the sport. Death by a thousand cuts.

[Jim Norman]

Ivan,

If I were to use a Belt Slide Holster and simply bend my leg slightly to the rear while sitting in a chair I will have the muzzle pointing at my calf. It is a fact of life. If we are going to NEVER allow under ANY circumstance REGARDLESS of whether or not the gun is a holster, a muzzle to cover ANY part of the body at ANY time, then the sport as we know it is dead. It is an impossibility to never cover any body part. We have to accept that there will be times when a holstered gun is being drawn or holstered that it will point in other than the most favorable direction. If you apply the safety, remove your finger from the vicinity of the trigger and insert the gun into the holster, it is a safe movement. This is one reason that we require the trigger to be covered while in the holster. You can't put your finger on the trigger whilst drawing the gun. You must get the gun out first. If the interpretation is that you can't sweep during the draw, then I say that we are done. The sport is over, lets all go shoot bullseye. If the gun is holstered there is no way that you can prevent certain positions or movements wherein the muzzle won't point at or cover some portion of the shooter's body. If we remove the exemption, the shooter will have to stop, stand straight, and verify the correct position of all applicable body parts prior to starting to draw or risk being DQ'd. If we go so far as to say that you can NEVER cover any body part, then we can not use a holster at all, PERIOD because we will of necessity cover a body part at some time.

Ivan,

Yes it was the Royal usage of the pronoun "We" as in "We are not amused"

Vincent,

What you said!

Sky,

On the whole I agree with what you said. The Rules allow it, in Open. Do they disallow it in Limited (US)? Or Standard (IPSC)? Or Revolver (US or IPSC)? The problem is that the rules allow it. If a rule ALLOWS something then a new interpretation of the rule can easily change what is required. If there is no rule/law, a new one needs to be made, that is or should be much more difficult. We should not write rules that allow, we should only write rules that restrict! That is the difference between a right and a privilege. And it applies equally to sports as it does to Legislation.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

[admin note:]

I removed some flammable material from some of the posts in this thread...as well as removing some of the posts. I am going to re-open this thread now.

I'd like to remind everybody (myself included) that this is not the place for political haggling. And, that we must treat each of the members here with respect.

Back to the topic...

ivanhu, brought to our attention a situation that we can all learn from. Lets keep future post focused on the aspect of learning from one another.

Thanks,

Kyle

(administrator hat off)

[Jim Norman]

Kyle,

Thank you for reopening this thread.

A question. Are we discussing the particular stage design that Ivan brought up only, OR are we discussing sweeping in general?

Knowing that will steer this discussion in it's proper direction.

Jim