Purchasing an M14

[Patriot]

Which one? Plan on shooting in the major catagory occasionally. I don't believe I will ever be a threat to win the he-man. Since I will be spending the money should I spend a little more or go as cheap as possible? Thanks.

[kurtm]

Patriot:

It depends on what you want the rifle for. If you want one for running the readily available cheap surplus ammo through and just generally enjoy plinking with I would recomend any of the standard grade Springfield M1As. I like the full size rifles, but the "tacticle" or even scout length rifles are fun, bush rifle? Anyway, I have yet to see one that takes a scope well. Even the 3rd generation mounts aren't that great ( the military has taken to welding them on as the screws that mount it just don't cut it) Also the scope sits way to high to get any kind of good cheek weld. I wouldn't plan on scoping the thing at all.

If you want a fairly accurate rifle that you will feed good ammo to for hunting ( I use mine this way all the time ) or some what serious target and long range shooting...ie... National Match, some 3-gun stuff, I would get one of the Springfield "loaded " rifles and have a good M 14 gunsmith bed it and unitize the gas cylider and stock ferrul. This should give you a good minute of angle rifle for quite a few years....but not with M-80 ball ammo! Almost all " standard " ball ammo is NOT capable of very acceptable accuracy..ie 2 1/2-4 M.O.A. Any good match type ammo should do the trick!

Next, if you want a " tack driver" would be the National Match grade rifle from Springfeild. Fully bedded and tricked out from the factory! These are now really good rifles out of the box! I wouldn't waste any money on the Ultrmatch, or any of the double lug rifles as the return isn't worth the investment I.M.O. Of course you are now talking serious change and I wouldn't hesitate to look at the match rifles from Fulton Armory, or Smith Enterprises.

Even unitizing and bedding a standard grade M1A will show some good results, and a 1 1/2- 2 M.O.A. rifle is possible.

If you want a fairly accurate to really accurate rifle right out of the box, that takes a scope well, look at any of the AR-10 type rifles with a free float barrel. The down side is finding magazines for them, but the price range is just about the same! Hope this helped.

I love M1As, and have been playing with them and working on them since 76. I own only one AR-10 type rifle, a DPMS Panther 24" that I picked up in Arizona and haven't even shot it yet. I might just get rid of it, I don't know. I do know that I will NEVER get rid of any of my M1As. Better rifle?? Nope just like em more! KURTM

[Patriot]

Thanks!

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Just my .02........ I have owned 2 of the standard grade springfields and both have been 100% reliable right out of the box and both are capable of 1.5 MOA easily with Good NATO Spec. surplus ammo such as the FN made .308 coming out of portugal. The last 2 cases of this ammo cost me $139.00 per 1000 rounds including shipping from AIM surplus. With my handloaded fodder using 155 grain sierra palma's they will both do 1 MOA or better from a rest all day long. At these prices, I havent loaded any of my own in over a year. My suggestion is to purchase the standard grade rifle and to put the cash saved into Portuguese or Australian NATO surplus ammo before the supplies dry up or new legislation is passed that will block it's importation.

[kurtm]

3" or better groups at 200 yds with stock rifles and ball ammo! You have two VERY atipical M1As. FWIW the Portuges ammo only turned in mediocre 2.5-3.5 MOA groups in all 3 of mine, which are fairly hevily modified for accuracy, one Krieger barrel, One Barnett, and one Hart. Maybe that ammo is designed for Chrome lined barrels only. KURTM

[Jim Norman]

I have shot the following through my M1A.

Portueguese, OK, not great

US Surplus, belted, excellent results, sub 1MOA

Lake City "Brand" from Hungry, no longer available, excellent

Tallon, worst crap I ever ssaw, 6 plus MOA

Georgia Arms reloads, good results.

I have the match stock, out of the box. I get equal results using a drop in fiberglass stock from Fred's. And it has the advantage of being hose and brush cleanable after a day in the mud.

THe scope mount is a bit problematic, I am thinking of some lock-tite if I go back to a scope on this gun.

YMMV

Jim Norman

[Chutist]

I'm watching this topic as well. Living in Kali, I don't have many options. I was smart enough to set mags back before all this started. What do you guys think of the forward scope mounts on the M1A - like are offered on the Scout and SOCOM 16?

[Jim Norman]

I have not tried that, but I have a California Comp mount for an M-16 that puts my Aimpoint in a co-witmess position very nicely. I recently installed the Aimpoint on my flat-top using a rier to line up with the flip sights I am using. seems pretty good so far.

The forward mount looks like a good idea when used in conjunction with a dot and as a co-witness sight. As a scope mount, I have not tried it. I would think you would need a specially built scope to get the really long eye relief required.

Jim

[kurtm]

I don't know of any way to co-witness a scope to the existing sights on an M-14/M1A. The sights are just to close to the center line of the bore for it to be possible. The forward scope are ok but you still have to obtain a jaw weld instead of a cheek weld as the scope sits to high, although somewhat better than with a mount on the reciever. This slows you down alot as it isn't natural to keep your head so high to shoot..... But now that I think on it a bit, maybe a J.Point would come close out in the scout mount position. I might have to play with that idea!

Jim, when you say your rifle came in the match stock do you mean you have a national match version of the M1A? Already bedded and unitized and the trigger pull is worked on? The gas cylinder is trued to the op rod?....etc? I can only say that if linked ball did that well in all match grade M-14s, they never would have come up with M-118 match ammo, or special ball, or M-855 match ammo, and all the sniper programs would have been issuing ball lo these many years. Its nice to know that every once in awhile the moon and stars align and an exceptional rifle is built. KURTM

[kellyn]

If you want to get a scoped .308, I'd go with an AR10 or FAL. God intended for M1 Garands and M14/M1As to be shot with iron sights.

[Jim Norman]

Kurt,

No, I did not buy a National Match, It does however have the thicker "Match Stock" as opposed tothe thinner issue stock. I have a few of those that I put on should I decide to go for Ironman competition. The gun is accurate. Yes occasionally something good happens.

As to a jaw weld vs a check weld, isn't that why they make those fancy pads you lace onto M1's and M1A/M14's?

I agree that that still sucks though.

But an IPSC target out to 500 yards or more shouldn't be a real hard target if you know your rifle.

Jim

[kurtm]

Jim:

I quite agree, 500yds isn't to hard if one is well aquainted with their rifle Just this last weekend I was a the Whittington center playing with my extended sight radius AR and hits on a IPSC target weren't a problem, out of 5 rounds fired per group It usually would go 2-3 As, 2cs-ds with the occasional miss, wind was a factor as was the use of just Q3131A winchester ammo, group size ran right around 8"-10"

As a side note the tan lace on cheek pieces that you see for the M1 is an off set cheek piece designed with the M1D Garand in mind. the scope was offset to he left side so one could load the thing with the enblock clips, hence the big raised pad section. It goes much more LEFT than UP. A lot of folkes have purchased these things and had to turn right around and try to resell them because they don't work. I have a sneeking suspision that there are really only about 100 of these things out there, but everyone just keeps swaping them around . There are a couple other "lace on" pad that almost work, and you can get a stock that adjusts for the scope but they are heavy and even at the lowest setting tend to be to high for the iron sights.

[Jim Norman]

I have a black leather riser pad that goes on with velcro. It kinda works. But then as you say it is too high for the irons comfortably.

Jim

[sahauptman]

Which one? Plan on shooting in the major catagory occasionally. I don't believe I will ever be a threat to win the he-man. Since I will be spending the money should I spend a little more or go as cheap as possible? Thanks.

Hi Patriot

From the big 3Gun matches I have been to, I see a lot of FN FAL's and copies in the He-Man class and the folks that want to shoot major.

A few of the reasons you see them are the push button mag release, the cheep and plentiful 30 round mags and the very efficient muzzle break on them.

Now don't get me wrong, I love my M1A and used it to shoot in 3gun and High Power matches till the mid 1990's. But if I had to do it again, I think I would get a FN FAL for 3gun.

[Wakal]

I started with a FedOrd early M14S. After playing with it for a while, I had Clint at Fulton Armory rebuild it to his specifications.

Messed with it a while longer, then got rid of it.

Used that money to buy a AR10A4. Set the thing up the same as my favorite AR15...18" .750 stainless barrel with the big JP brake, free float handguard, dual optics, ACE stock...

Kind of like going from a stock '49 Ford to a new Rally car.

Handles like an AR, shoots like an AR, makes big holes like a M14. I'd do it again on a heartbeat

Alex

[kellyn]

AR10s, M1As, and FALs are all capable of winning He-Man. Each has some advantages and disadvantages. One disadvantage of M1as is durability. I know Kurt may disagree but I would never subject my beloved Supermatch M1A to the pounding of 3 gunning. I shot a couple of M14s apart during rattle battle matches in the 80s and don't want to repeat the process. But I sure like shooting the M1A.

Now the day that someone wins Heman with an HK91 will be the first sign of the apocalypse.

[kurtm]

I disagree! I am on my 5th barrel on the one M1A I use for the 3-gun stuff, hasn't hammered apart yet. Only thing I changed was the op rod and width of the front sight. Hasn't broken a single part, although the gas cylinder is almost out of spec and will need to be replaced on the next barrel. Had to freshen the bedding once, but I do that myself and only takes 3 days due to letting the steel bed cure, true work time is about 1.5 hours. Perhaps you ran itno a M1A "bridge" durring rattle battle KURTM

[hopalong]

Hi Patriot,

I have a Springfield Scout Squad rifle, and use it for 3-gun, shot my First Major match with it at Tennessee Tactical.

I have had Zero problems with this gun, the only thing is the Factory break is not USPSA legal ( a hair to long) it needs to be 3 inches or less from the end of the rifling out. If you have a good machinist he can put the break in a lathe and trim some off of the end.

I myself have a break that is 2nd generation from Springfield on mine.

I spoke to the Rifle Engineer at the Factory gun Nationals last year and told him about the too long he said at the time they were developing some new ones for the SOCOM and that he had a shorter more efficient one on a gun they were testing.(the SOCOM).

According to him the break on the Standard Scout/Squad will let the Muzzle rise on a true M14 in full auto, the one I have will hold it relatively still, and the one on the SOCOM will actually drive the Muzzle down in full auto IMPRESSIVE to say the least.

Magazines are the real deal here, the GI 20s will run forever if you keep them clean and in good shape, you will need to replace the springs eventually.

Maybe when(I really HOPE) the Ban on magazines sunsets we will be able to get good reliable 30 rounders. I have one cheapo that actually works 99% of the time.

I reload my .308 for I also have a National Match that I shoot in NRA Hi-Power. for My scout/squad i load 42 gr of IMR 4034 (light Blue can) using the Bulk Winchester 147 gr fmj and use winchester large rifle primers. I crimp on the Canalure of the bullet. this will give me enough to make the New Power Factor in USPSA. (340000) in my gun, different comp/break may not.I also have a Tasco red dot on the forward mount, I have come to like it and it will shave about 2 seconds a run off a course with 10-14 targets. with the red dot (3 minute dot) this rifle will shoot 3 inch or less groups with the above load. I have not shot it past 200 yds ever so I can not tell you anything about that.

At our last quarterly 3-gun Uspsa match I won the limited division aggregate due to the fact that I shot Major rifle if I had shot my AR-15 the points difference would have put me behind one of those Matel Toys.

My next Project SPRINGFIELD SOCOM

Good Luck with your delima, I am sorry I can only help with one side of the problem but I am not hesitant to recomend the Scout/Squad the standard rifle to me is too long and is way more brutal.

SAM KEEN

[Jim Norman]

My M1A runs. Period.

Consider that it is essentially the same action as an M1. They run.

I have an AR10 flattop. It works if the mags work. That seems to be the big problem there. I think that Arm-R-Lite should have tryed to just use the M14 Mag and forgot that litttle button thingie. Who needs a fine pen spring flying around when you are trying to clean a magazine in the field?

While I like the AR10. I have to admit that the M1A just seems right. We have a shooter that runs with an M1 in our rifle matches. Doesn't finish first, but is not last either.

Jim