M&P9 147gr bullets keyholing

[sdm74]

Maybe you should just sell the rest of the 147's to me...lol

[GForceLizard]

If you want the minimize the recoil then buy that aftermarket barrel and load titegroup under that 147gr bullet.

[98006]

How do 115gn bullets fly in your gun?

See my original post. The short answer: perfectly. Same with 124gr MG JHPs, which I've been shooting without issue for over a year.

UPDATE: just came home from the range. The WST experiment has yielded odd results. The very first mag (10 rounds) had about 80% keyholing. The next 100 rounds were quite good with only the occasional signs of yaw on the target strikes and then only at the 15 yd distance (the 10 yd target showed perfect hits). Not really sure what to make of that other than perhaps the hot barrel was working better. I had some of the Titegroup versions and they keyholed at both distances over 50% of the time, just like previous tests. Just for fun I shot a mag of the WST rounds though my Ruger SR9c and they showed perfect stability at both distances.

So at this point I think I will load up 1k of the WST version and just run with that for a few weeks. I am seriously contemplating the KKM barrel since they are willing to guarantee its functionality with these rounds.

Stay tuned...

you going too slow. bump it up to 4.1

First, to answer Wanderer: The 850fps was with 3.5gr of TG. I never bothered chrono'ing the 3.6 due to the poor stability. I suspect the latter easily made MinorPF. Now, this brings up an interesting point: those rounds using 3.6gr of TG showed signs of over pressure, i.e., the primers showed a considerable raised bulge in the teardrop shape of the breach face opening. No real problem but clearly this is a max load for a reason. Yesterday's rounds with 3.8gr of WST showed very little of this so I suspect I could in fact bump the powder up to 4.0 or even 4.1gr as 98006 is doing. But...at that load I really question whether this is an improvement over my Production load of the past year (MG JHP 124gr, TG 4.1gr, CCI SPP, OAL: 1.11).

My entire reason for moving to the 147gr bullet was to reduce felt recoil so as to make my splits faster. I was consistently at 128pf year-round with the 124gr load but now I'm headed for 140pf, just to get a stable bullet in flight. Is this progress???

*sigh* I guess I will load up some 4.0 and 4.1gr rounds right now and...head to my second job this afternoon: the range. ;-)

One thing I found,good or bad, is that 147gr loads are quieter than the eqivilent 124 or 115 load. one can hear the difference. People think i am ahooting powder puff loads due to the sound. I have had to put it over a chrono to silence them.

[Gary H.]

I have to wonder if you got an odd ball barrel. My gun doesn't like the 115s! Accuracy is terrible with them. I shoot 147's in both my 9 Pro and my Compact with no key holing. I just went through a batch (1000) of MG 147's with no issues, tried Barry's 147 jacketed 147s with no issues, and am now working on a case of BBI 147s and again, no issue. With my Pro, I loaded 3.1 TG and was just light at 845 fps average. I bumpbed it up to 3.3 and it was safely at 132 pf. I have now switched to N320 simply because I like the recoil much more and I hate the nasty sooty residue that the TG left in my gun.

That being said, how is the felt recoil compared to the 124s? I went through a sampling (1000) Berrys 124 HBFP and (1000) MG 124 JHP and I really like it compared to the 147s, using 4.1 grains of N320 in all 124 loads. My splits are faster and the snappier recoil lets me get the gun back on target quicker. The timer is telling me this so it's not just perceived. My next order will be the 124's.

[Bob DuBois]

I understand and agree on the use of heavy bullets, cuts recoil but the twist your shooting doesn't like heavy bullets.

If it shoots 115 and 124 bullets without problems there's your answer. You'll either replace the barrel with a slower twist and shoot 147's or leave the gun alone and shoot 115 or 124 bullets. Might purchase several bullet designs in hundred packs 124gn weight and see which your pistol likes then purchase in quantity.

Pushing the heavier bullet faster may or may not stabilize the bullet but will increase recoil.

[DWFAN]

I agree with the push them faster opinions. I shoot a 147gr bullet out of a 1:24 twist barrel just fine, but a little higher velocity than you get. Perfect little circles out to 50 yards.

My M&P shoots 147gr bullets out of the stock barrel also with no issues so far.

[sdm74]

If you want the minimize the recoil then buy that aftermarket barrel and load titegroup under that 147gr bullet.

Is the kkm barrel good for 147's ?

[MrPCHead]

I agree with the push them faster opinions. I shoot a 147gr bullet out of a 1:24 twist barrel just fine, but a little higher velocity than you get. Perfect little circles out to 50 yards.

My M&P shoots 147gr bullets out of the stock barrel also with no issues so far.

Does your M&P9 have a 4.25" barrel? I see many folks doing just fine with the 5" barrels but those of us with the shorty barrel (stop laughing!) seem to be having this issue more so than others.

As for the 1 in 24" barrel, I would love to know what gun/barrel/powder/bullet/primer/OAL you are using successfully. Actually I would love that info for your M&P load too.

[MrPCHead]

I have to wonder if you got an odd ball barrel. My gun doesn't like the 115s! Accuracy is terrible with them. I shoot 147's in both my 9 Pro and my Compact with no key holing. I just went through a batch (1000) of MG 147's with no issues, tried Barry's 147 jacketed 147s with no issues, and am now working on a case of BBI 147s and again, no issue. With my Pro, I loaded 3.1 TG and was just light at 845 fps average. I bumpbed it up to 3.3 and it was safely at 132 pf. I have now switched to N320 simply because I like the recoil much more and I hate the nasty sooty residue that the TG left in my gun.

That being said, how is the felt recoil compared to the 124s? I went through a sampling (1000) Berrys 124 HBFP and (1000) MG 124 JHP and I really like it compared to the 147s, using 4.1 grains of N320 in all 124 loads. My splits are faster and the snappier recoil lets me get the gun back on target quicker. The timer is telling me this so it's not just perceived. My next order will be the 124's.

Honestly the felt recoil is no different than my previous 124gr MG JHP/4.1gr TG load. That is, I perceive no difference. At this point recoil is moot given that the rounds are worthless if they don't fly straight.

[MrPCHead]

If you want the minimize the recoil then buy that aftermarket barrel and load titegroup under that 147gr bullet.

Is the kkm barrel good for 147's ?

Luke (the lead machinist at KKM) told me that if their barrel didn't shoot this round perfectly (147gr MG CMJ loaded to MinorPF with TG powder) that they would take the barrel back and refund my money. We were specifically talking about my M&P9 with the standard (4.25") barrel. That's a pretty emphatic statement, from which they can't really backtrack.

[sdm74]

If you want the minimize the recoil then buy that aftermarket barrel and load titegroup under that 147gr bullet.

Is the kkm barrel good for 147's ?

Luke (the lead machinist at KKM) told me that if their barrel didn't shoot this round perfectly (147gr MG CMJ loaded to MinorPF with TG powder) that they would take the barrel back and refund my money. We were specifically talking about my M&P9 with the standard (4.25") barrel. That's a pretty emphatic statement, from which they can't really backtrack.

Thanks man, think im gonna try one out after this season

[DWFAN]

I agree with the push them faster opinions. I shoot a 147gr bullet out of a 1:24 twist barrel just fine, but a little higher velocity than you get. Perfect little circles out to 50 yards.

My M&P shoots 147gr bullets out of the stock barrel also with no issues so far.

Does your M&P9 have a 4.25" barrel? I see many folks doing just fine with the 5" barrels but those of us with the shorty barrel (stop laughing!) seem to be having this issue more so than others.

As for the 1 in 24" barrel, I would love to know what gun/barrel/powder/bullet/primer/OAL you are using successfully. Actually I would love that info for your M&P load too.

Its the Pro. ANY 147gr load Ive tried. My main one is 3.5gr titegroup and a 147cmj or 3.7-3.8gr Solo 1K, and a BBI 147.

Schuemann 1:24 AET, 9mm gun built for Bianchi. Funny part is, it wont shoot 115gr bullets under 1200 fps with any accuracy. But it shoots 121 gr .356 bullets at 1170 fps under an inch. It shoots the above 147 BBI load at about a 2.5 inch group at 50 yds. Prone, no rest.

The BBI load makes 135pf out of my 5 inch guns, 140 through the 6 inch barrel bianchi gun. Thats another reason why I suggested pushing them a little faster. You wont feel much difference on 30-50 fps, but it may help stabilize.

[MrPCHead]

This afternoon's test results are in:

147gr Montana Gold CMJ

4.1gr WST

CCI SPP

OAL = 1.11

temp = 70 degrees

humidity = 70%

This morning I did an especially thorough job cleaning the pistol. The barrel then got a very close inspection and it was as expected perfect as far as the magnified view could reveal.

5-shot groups on 2 targets, one at 12 yds, the other at 18yds

Total of 120 rounds shot over 20 minutes.

At least 50% of hits on the far target showed yaw of 30-40 degrees. Upon close inspection, 30% of hits on the near target showed clear signs of yaw but only about 10-15 degrees. Any way you cut it this is simply not working.

I will set aside the 147gr bullets until I can get a better barrel or a better gun. Back to the 124gr JHPs for me!

Thanks to everyone for the input. I really appreciate it.

[98006]

We are running out of options. Have you check the size of the bullets?

[TonyT]

I have a supply of the old 147 gr. Star FMJ bullets which I have been using. I have used 3.5 gr. Bullseye, 4.0 gr. VV N-330 and 4.1 gr. WSF with WSP for ca 900 to 920 fps. No keyholiong observed.

4.1 gr. WST seems like a very hot load. I have never seen WST recommended by W-W for use in 9mm.

Attached are pages form the Alliant 2005 and W-W 14th Edition reloading guides.

Hi folks

I've been scouring the forums here for the last week and while I've found some similar information I haven't seen precisely my situation so here goes...

I've been shooting an M&P9 (4.25" barrel) in Production for the last year. Before getting this gun I had been loading Montana Gold 124gr JHP bullets with 4.1gr of Titegroup and CCI Small Pistol Primers. (OAL = 1.14"). These rounds worked well when I tried them in the M&P so I kept at it. I've not had any complaints after 6-7k rounds and I've had a lot of fun at matches. This summer I decided to revisit the 147gr bullet approach. I bought a case of MG 147 CMJ bullets and set out to find a workable load. I started at 3.3gr of TG, which never made MinorPF (avg 840fps over numerous tests). Of concern to me was that my rounds were keyholing at least 50% of the time. I moved up to 3.5gr of TG and was then able to consistently make right at 850fps but still keyholing quite often. Finally I tried 3.6gr (max load for this bullet) and still could not get rid of the keyholing. I tried various OAL (1.10-1.15) and various heavy/light crimps but nomatter what I did I am getting 30-50% keyholing.

At this point I began to wonder about the twist rate (1 in 18.75") in this shorter barrel. Just for fun I tried some WWB 147JHP rounds and guess what? Keyholing at least 25% of the time! Switching back to 115gr WWB and my previous 124gr handloads = no keyholing at all and good groups. It is worth mentioning that the barrel appears to have clean, sharp lands, a good crown and throat.

As a final data point, I decided to try out my carry pistol (Ruger SR9c)with its 3.5" barrel and guess what? No keyholing with either of the heavy bullets! As it turns out the Ruger has a 1 in 10" twist rate. Hmm.

I called S&W today and they said that 6k rounds was a lot of wear on the gun and that could be the cause of the problem. Seriously? 6k rounds??? They also said that they would be happy to check out the barrel if I would ship it to them. I said I was in the middle of the shooting season and that isn't feasible. The rep said "shoot your matches then send it in". I asked if there were any known problems with this gun and the heavy bullets but he said he could provide no further information about any known issues. Odd that they would take that tack.

Later today I called KKM and asked them what they thought. I spoke with Luke who said he didn't think the twist rate was really the issue but that the "cut rifling" may have been the root cause. He also mentioned that MG bullets were notorious for their thin jacketing and consequent problems. Hmm.

So here I sit with about 2600 of these bullets that I can't shoot. Is it an exclusive problem for the 4.25" barrel? Is 6k rounds too much to ask of a barrel? Would a Storm Lake/KKM/??? barrel solve the problem?

What say you great sages? ;-)

-William

Upper Valley Practical Shooters

Green Mountain Practical Shooters

[MrPCHead]

We are running out of options. Have you check the size of the bullets?

Yes, bullets are fine: .355" precisely for every single one I checked.

The only thing I can say with certainty at this point is that this gun won't shoot any 147gr bullet with stability, regardless of powder, power factor, OAL, crimp, etc.. If in fact others are getting good performance that's great but it seems to me that the 1 in 18.75" twist rate is marginal at best for this 4.25" barrel. M&P9s with the 5" barrels appear to be no problem.

I loaded up a bunch of 124gr MG JHPs last night for today's practice and will check for stability just for fun. It was like seeing an old friend after struggling with the 147gr bullets for the last two weeks. I'm sure they will be fine but I will certainly be looking. Several other team members want to try the heavy bullets and given that they are all shooting guns with a 1 in 10" twist, I'm sure the rounds will function well.

As for what to do with these bullets (2k still in the box) I think that I will get a KKM barrel when they get the next batch completed and see how that works. If it can manage the heavy bullets, I will settle in to the 3.5gr TG load and send the factory barrel to S&W for their inspection, as they suggested. When I have more information I will post it here.

Thanks again everyone!

-William Daugherty

A65695

[DougCarden]

Hi BIll.

Some of the 9mm barrels in the M&Ps were crap from the factory. I would just call the factory and tell them your barrel is crap, what groups it will do, and tell them you would like the barrel replaced. Be firm but nice as they did have bad barrels.

Keep your targets from this barrel, and duplicate the accuracy testing. If you want to not waste your time, just buy the KKM and you will be a much happier camper. I have storm lake barrels in my 9's, and will get some KKM when I have the $$$$.

Good luck,

DougC

[Gary H.]

Hi BIll.

Some of the 9mm barrels in the M&Ps were crap from the factory. I would just call the factory and tell them your barrel is crap, what groups it will do, and tell them you would like the barrel replaced. Be firm but nice as they did have bad barrels.

Keep your targets from this barrel, and duplicate the accuracy testing. If you want to not waste your time, just buy the KKM and you will be a much happier camper. I have storm lake barrels in my 9's, and will get some KKM when I have the $$$$.

Good luck,

DougC

I've have to say ditto to this post if your having this bad of a problem. When I got my 9 Pro originally, it was shooting 6" low with factory ammo. The first call, they blamed it on the ammo saying to use 124 or 147 and it'll shoot higher. The second call, they gave in and sent me a ship order on their dime and put a new barrel in it. Had it back in about 10 days.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Gary H.

[Shadowrider]

You've gotten pretty good info in this thread as is usual here.

1st the 6K rounds comment from S&W is completely bogus. You can shoot a good 60k rounds through that gun without worry.

2nd the comment about MG bullets, I don't buy that one either. Some guns just don't like or get along with ANY given bullet, MGs, Zeros, Hornady, Sierra, it applies to all of them and that might be the case here.

Now I would work up your WST loads with jacketed bullets pretty cautiously. I've chrono'd a bunch of them with hardcast lead 147s in my 9Pro and WST seems to have a line that if you cross it gets pretty inconsistent and it does so very fast. I've found that the hotter you go the wider your ES and SD will get. And when you get close to "that line" they increase dramatically, it's not a linear curve. You are going to get to "that line" faster with jacketed bullets since they are harder. I only use WST in 9mm with lead bullets but I don't shoot jacketed out of that gun. My WST load just shoots too good to mess with anything else and it's so soft that it's mind boggling. Also I've checked for tumbling at 50yds and there is none.

With 147gr lead bullets I've seen Titegroup and Clays loads that tumble terribly fixed by simply switching to WST and I'd bet that Solo would have worked too. This was in an M&P and in a Glock, both guns with factory barrels and aftermarket barrels. So this is 2 different guns and a total of 4 barrels that this fix worked. Since you are shooting jacketed I don't know if a powder change will work or not. Sounds like a twist rate issue, but that doesn't make sense either since there are thousands of folks running 147s very successfully. I suspect there is an issue with your specific barrel. Good luck with it and let us know what you find out.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Shadowrider

[MrPCHead]

UPDATE: This story continues: another member of our squad purchased an M&P9 Full-Size (4.25" barrel) just like mine. He also added the Apex Tactical Comp AEK to it. We tried both guns with various versions of the 147gr bullets I had no luck with and guess what? No keyholing with his gun! It is noteworthy that I had spent an incredible amount of time using three different kinds of cleaning products to get every minute amount of fouling out of the barrel the night before. There still were small traces of crud in the grooves but it was the least I've seen since the gun was new. I wanted to try his barrel in my gun to rule out anything else (barrel unlocking early, etc.) but my front sight broke so we called it a day.

I have continued shooting the gun at matches these last few weeks with good results, using 124gr JHPs as usual. Well, my accuracy was good anyway. Mental mistakes cost me at least 5-6 places in the overall score for the Vermont Championship last weekend but that's another story.

This barrel is headed back to S&W for their assessment. My new KKM barrel should be here in time for weekend practice. I intend to go back to the original starting point of 147gr CMJ, 3.3gr TG, 1.14 OAL and see how that works. They are guaranteeing that I won't have stability issues so I hope they are right. We shall see.

William

[MrPCHead]

The new barrel from KKM arrived this afternoon so out to the range we went. Problem solved. No keyholing at any distance. Gun is quite accurate when shooting slowly but at speed I was a little shaky. Not bad mind you but not as good as I've been shooting lately. We shot a short 16-round stage with no-shoots and plenty of hard cover. I had at least one Mike on each run when going at "normal" speeds, but slow it down a tick and things came right to POA. I suspect I will need a bit of trigger time to get used to the new feel. I did notice the sight picture is returning much quicker than I'm used to so that has to be a good sign.

So what exactly was the problem? I'm uncertain. Either this barrel was flawed from the factory or became compromised during the course of 6-8k rounds. At this point I can't see how it is the twist rate given that Tim's gun (identical to mine but brand new) does not have this problem. I really don't know. I will be shipping the barrel back to S&W ASAP as they requested. I suspect they will be sending me a new one.

Just to close the loop: the ammo used today was 147gr CMJ Montana Gold Bullets, 3.5gr Titegroup, CCI Small Pistol Primers and OAL of 1.135. I had one FTF due to a high primer. Mea Culpa. All rounds loaded and ejected perfectly over the course of 150 rounds fired. I will chrono them either tomorrow or Saturday but am completely confident they will make MinorPF. I will post an update when I hear from S&W about the barrel.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion. I'm very grateful to be part of such a fantastic community.

William Daugherty

[fred5876r]

I use the 147 MG CMJ in my 9L with good results. My load is 3.3 TG @ 1.135 OAL. I was using a 5.7" ported Storm Lake barrel (open gun) but I was having a failure to extract about once every 100-150 rounds. The chamber was reamed to spec and an Apex "Failure Resistant" extractor didn't help. I went back to the factory 5" barrel and it has been 100% over the last 500 rounds. I may try the KKM.

[Leftridge]

I've had a barrel problem with my wife's M&P 9 (4.25"). I just started reloading for the nine. I'm using 147gn Precision & Solo 1K. I couldn't seat them deep enough for them not to contact something in the throat/leade (I thought it was rifling).

Upon inspection every bullet feed into the barrel had a scratch to the case mouth. I called S&W they sent me a new barrel, I got it today, problem solved. I can drop 1.135 into this barrel, no contact. But, I've already loaded a bunch @ 1.120" we'll just have to test for accuracy, function and PF, but there was definitely something wrong with the old barrel. The feed ramp and the chamber of the old barrel had machine marks, new one doesn't.

It seems S&W have had some QC problems, however the customer service is stellar.

[Leftridge]

Ohh forgot to mention, during load testing we had no key-holing whatsoever.