The Myth of The 9 in 1 Gun Being Best for IDPA

[Larrys1911]

UH HUH,

You took the bait!

When was the last national level competition that the ESP shooter shooting a 1911 in sub caliber had the overall best time...

There have been some VERY good shooters GM IPSCers shooting ESP since it started.

To answer the above question, Ill save you some time. I Dont think its been done, EVER!

When the CoFs are designed to not favor 10 or 11 rounds over 9 the differences in scores are often VERY small. Like within a second

This years Nats there were stages that favored the 10 and 11 round guns and it showed.

Nope sorry I dont think there is that much diference.

In addition I have proven to myself over and over that its just not that big a deal at least for me!

What I do think is: IF "YOU" think its a big deal for "YOU", it will be!

Larry P

[NEPAKevin]

He stated one of the things was a ghost reload. First time I had ever heard of that. Guess I lead a sheltered life. He explained that some guys from South America had used it during the Fla. Match and were DQ'd as they should have been.

If you want to learn some of the origins of the ghost reload, at least as far as IDPA is concerned, go to the archives on the old IDPA mailing list on scifisquwk.

old IDPA mailing list

FWIW, it's a real mix of great ideas, bitterness, and lots of personal conversations that takes a lot of patience to go through and searches only help if you know the right key word.

Kevin

[Joe D]

Larry, not quite sure what you are saying. Are you saying that the PF has no bearing on how hard or easy a gun is to shoot? You may be right. I seem to shoot my G35 just as well with my 168-170 PF IPSC load as I do with my 140-145 PF IDPA load.

I looked at last years Nationals. Low time was Dave Sevigny at 173.29 SSP, Matt Burkett was next in ESP at 187.97 followed by Earnest Langdon at 189.62 in CDP.

Dave shoots a Glock 34. I think he shoots a 147 gr. load by Triton or Atlanta Arms.

Matt Burkett shoots what appears to be a 9mm SVI 2011 widebody.

Earnest shot that 15 lb. Sig.

Dave shoots in a universe that us mortals can only dream about.

I think course design should be as neutral as possible. Everyone should have a reload. I try to have stages with at least 12 rounds, but no more than 17. I think it is best to avoid having a stage with 10 or 11 rounds. Either do 9 or less or 12 or more.

[Larrys1911]

Yes it has a bearing but not as much as most people want to think. Nor do I think at the levels we are talking about it is a decisive factor MOST of the time. You can either manage recoil or you cant. I shot a 329 S&W last month 18 times

6 of those were in a Bill Drill at night. Now that level of RECOIL would definately make a difference! Going from 130 to 170........... Nah.

You said:

Maybe Larry, but when I see guys shooting 9mm and .40 1911s at a 126 PF it makes me wonder. These guns have no recoil.

Which was what I was talking about. 1911 sub caliber to 1911 in 45 or ESP to CDP

So much for the 9mm and 40s 1911 having an a unfair advantage.

Yes I am aware of what they shoot and how they finshed, As I said ESP has NEVER had the fastest time of any nats. I also said that CoF design may have played a part in the difference of the scores last year (it was at my home club).

12 rounds doesnt necessarily make it even, if the reload is placed well for a SSP/ESP shooter it may not be for a CDP shooter and visa versa.

I dont think they should be "equal" across the board either. Life isnt.

BTW I think David was shooting Win White Box factory stuff, but thats from circumstantial evidence!

That's what everyone was saying about Rob a couple years ago!

he's superhuman

I think Matts gun was a 40 this year (it was in 2002) but I CRS!

Larry P

[scandog]

This thread just has too many items in it to pass up.

Where in the IDPA rule book does it say you can't use high cap mags? Is this a written rule or just one we are suppose to have just know. When I SO, I watch to see if a shooter tops off. If they don't, I question the round count in the mag. Then I watch the rounds fired to make sure they don't have more than allowed. My score keeper also helps out. They don't have to take off shoes and I do.

Last year I took the USPSA RO class. I think it was in limited 10 that you can't have more than 10 rounds in a mag at any time. We were told is was a procedural to have 11 int the first. They were working on changing it but in the USPSA rule book, there is little room for interpretation. Not like the LGB. oops, did I say that.

Lets see, Dumping rounds. If the stage is not limited, you can't give a penalty for dumping rounds. Even if you could, how would you determine who gets one. Master shooter can't make up any shots, Expert level gets to make up two shots and so on. I know there are shooters that can dump fast enough to make it faster, but everytime someone has tried at our range, they ended up slower. As far as I can tell, you have to let them dump or specify a maximum number of rounds.

[NEPAKevin]

Where in the IDPA rule book does it say you can't use high cap mags?

From the LGB FAQ: CAN I USE MY PRE-BAN HI-CAPACITY MAGAZINES? YES, however you may only load 8 or 10 rounds (depending upon division). IDPA shooting is not about who has the equipment advantage, rather who is the best shooter.

It's not that you can't use Hi-cap magazines, you can as previously stated, but that there exists a cheating technique by loading them to capacity and faking the reload.

Kevin

[Nik Habicht]

Last year I took the USPSA RO class. I think it was in limited 10 that you can't have more than 10 rounds in a mag at any time. We were told is was a procedural to have 11 int the first. They were working on changing it but in the USPSA rule book, there is little room for interpretation.

According to USPSA Rule 6.2.6 a competitor who fails to satisfy the equipment requirements of a division, such as having more than ten rounds in any magazine, is to be moved to open division. If open division is not recognized at that match, the competitor shoots for no score.

When we get the new rules, it'll alledgedly be modified to not being able to have more than ten rounds in any mag after the start signal is given....

[Duane Thomas]

Kyle,

Yeah, you can --- just don't fill it all the way up and attempt a ghost reload....

Ah. NOW I understand the concept. Load a high cap mag all the way up, pop the mag into your hand to (seemingly) start a RWR, move your hand like you're grabbing a spare mag from the pouch but don't, reinsert the high cap mag into the gun and keep firing.

That's disgusting. How craven. I never could have come up with that one in a thousand years.

Maybe I have my technology wrong. I thought the "ghost reload" consisted of doing a RWR where you didn't really make an effort to store the spare magazine, just brought your hand near the pocket as it moved toward the spare mag pouch, and dropped the mag, thus saving the time of inserting it into the pocket before grabbing the spare, and then arguing you did TOO make a "good faith effort to store the magazine."

I had never heard of the "phantom reload" before this thread. What is the difference between a ghost reload and a phantom reload, and what does each entail? Enquiring minds want to know.

[Duane Thomas]

Ok now I'm curious. I understood ghost reload to need a higher than legal mag capacity but my question is "what happened to the spare mag?" Stowed after inserting the (still) original mag? Wouldn't that be even slower?

I think the idea is that with a cover garment, the SO might not notice the "spare" is still in the mag pouch.

[Duane Thomas]

Duane,

Since when aren't hicap mags allowed? (I gotta get to IDPA matches more often). Are you saying I can't use a standard capacity G17 mag, loaded down to ten rounds?

Yes, you can. When I say, "We can't use over 10-shot mags," I don't mean we can't use higher capacity mags downloaded to 10. I have a sloppy tendency to express that as, "We can't use high capacity mags." Maybe I should say, "We can't use them AS high capacity mags."

[Duane Thomas]

If you use a hi-cap mag to avoid the Barney Mag issue then you probably should show the RO at each stage your mag has 11 rounds in it. USPSA's original Production class rule did not allow the use of any mag that would hold over 10 rounds. They have since changed that rule to read something like "No mag can have more that 10 rounds in it after the start command". They probably should have left the rule like it was.

Duane, they can be used, but only with 11 rounds to start a stage with. Does away with the Barney mag. It is a time saver at the "Load and make ready" point.

Let's just make it really clear you're talking about USPSA there. Not IDPA. And this is an IDPA question in the IDPA Shooting & Rules Questions forum. The "never over 10 rounds in a magazine at any time, even when loading" rule is still in force in IDPA.

[Duane Thomas]

BTW one more thing that should not be allowed is letting a shooter fill up his hi-cap mag during the Classifier Match to make the stages run faster. This is adding weight to the gun which is not legal.

Now that's one I've never heard before.

[Duane Thomas]

There is another Al. shooter, Larry, that I would want on my side in a gun fight. He is a left handed shooter that uses a true left handed 1911. He is very, very fast out of the holster. Once again he uses a real carry holster.

In IDPA, is there anything legal that couldn't be a real carry holster?

[Duane Thomas]

Maybe Larry, but when I see guys shooting 9mm and .40 1911s at a 126 PF it makes me wonder. These guns have no recoil.

Oh yes, they do. It ain't exactly like firing a pellet gun.

[Duane Thomas]

When was the last national level competition that the ESP shooter shooting a 1911 in sub caliber had the overall best time...

To answer the above question, Ill save you some time. I Dont think its been done, EVER!

As I said ESP has NEVER had the fastest time of any nats.

1999. IDPA Nationals. Scott Warren in ESP. Springfield 1911 in .40 S&W. Best score of any division.

Not sure what you mean by "sub caliber." Aren't they all calibers?

[Duane Thomas]

This years Nats there were stages that favored the 10 and 11 round guns and it showed.

I believe you mean the Winter Championships. The IDPA Nationals haven't occurred yet this year.

[Duane Thomas]

Yes it has a bearing but not as much as most people want to think.

That just about sums up my own feelings on the matter.

[Duane Thomas]

Last year I took the USPSA RO class. I think it was in limited 10 that you can't have more than 10 rounds in a mag at any time. We were told is was a procedural to have 11 int the first. They were working on changing it but in the USPSA rule book, there is little room for interpretation.

It's been changed per a notice in Front Sight. In USPSA. Not IDPA.

[mcoliver]

I think the idea is that with a cover garment, the SO might not notice the "spare" is still in the mag pouch.

Dang, that's just plain wrong! Wonder how these guys can sleep at night...

[scandog]

Nik,

Thanks for the clarificaiton. I knew it was a uspsa rule that stated no more than 10 rounds in the mag at any time. I did see that rule was going to be changed, but I have yet to see it in the IDPA rule book. Now that I think about it, I don't remember seeing anything in the IDPA rule book about High cap mags. As long as the gun being used can fit in the box with the mag in it, isn't it legal?

[Joe D]

Scan, the rule is on page 40 of the LGB. Funny thing is I see it done all the time.

Duane, if recoil is not an issue then why is ESP factored to be more difficult than CDP? Master in ESP = 89.41 CDP = 91.76. Does this not imply that a 9mm/.40 1911 is easier to shoot than a .45 1911?

I have had both a 9mm and .40 1911 and the recoil is very minimal compared to a .45 1911.

I guess what you are saying is if someone at the "Load and make ready" command has 11 rounds in their mag they should be given a 3 sec. procedural or a 20 sec FTDR. I have never seen these penalities given at the Nationals or any State match.What I have seen is a shooter at the start of a stage show the RO his mag with 11 rounds in it. If hi-caps are such an issue then IDPA should make them illegal.

As far as holsters go you are correct in saying any legal holster is considered a carry holster. The guys that use the inside the pants type holster are IMO closer to the "spirit" of IDPA than ones that use the belt type Kydex holsters.

I have seen ROs/Match Directors instruct shooters to fill up their hi-caps during a Classifier match to speed things up. Should not be allowed as it makes the gun heavier.

I wonder how the IDPA Divisions would have been structured if the hi-cap ban had not been already in place when IDPA was started.

[rmills]

Duane, as usual, your comments are 100% correct. Too often here in the IDPA Forum do we see individuals trying to associate USPSA rules with IDPA rules. Its a different game, period. If one comes over from USPSA and doesn't like the rules because "they do it this way in USPSA", keep shooting USPSA.

[ron durham]

Hi Joe D:

I am glad you posted again. To answer your last post to me.....I had a feeling all along that you were pulling my leg. Your sense of humor is on the same level as mine I think. Of course I was pulling your leg trying to get you to send a question to Dru the way it was worded and wondering if she would fall off her chair and break her leg laughing. That was a joke. One thing you did say that made me chuckle comparing me with that "other person"......you know who I mean!! When I first got on Glock Talk a few years ago, that guy tore me down on a National Forum so bad I almost never came back. I wouldn't converse with him under any circumstances; however, like my DI in the Army 45 years ago, they guy had my knees knocking for weeks. The day boot was over, he was a completely different person and somebody to enjoy being around. I do get good IDPA information reading his posts.

Well that about does it, this has really been a great thread.

Have a good day,

Ron Durham

[scandog]

Thanks for the page number. Here is what it says.

CAN I USE MY PRE-BAN HI-CAPACITY MAGAZINES? YES, however you

may only load 8 or 10 rounds (depending upon division). IDPA shooting is not

about who has the equipment advantage, rather who is the best shooter.

I guess we can use them. It just means the SO will have to watch the shooter closer. I still don't see the problem with having a shooter put an extra round in the first mag to top off. It keeps the match moving. Most shooters are honest. The shooters I tend to have had a problem with are those that are new and don't know the rules. I tell them to load full or to capacity and they fill a high cap.

I also understand your issue with the weight of a gun with a full high cap that is used in the classifier. If they want to do it, let them. Say the do move up a class. Can they compete at that level without a fully loaded high cap? If they can, it mag probably didn't make a diff. Just a thought.

[tightloop]

Wow Duane

eight single posts in a row, may be a forum record...