Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Just a small sample discussion from this weekend - want to see what people think the right call is: Stage consists of a box A, a plate rack straight away (backwall) with 6 plates and 2 MPP underneath it, on, the right birm and left birm there are two classics each, so 4 targets in the corners. Stage Description: Upon start signal, from Box-A only, engage paper targets with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. Steel or paper may be engaged first. Start is loaded and holstered. Situation: Shooter engages steel first shooting limited-10. Misses enough to leave 1 plate standing and an empty gun. Performs a mandatory reload, engages last plate, then shoots the 8 rounds at the paper targets. What's the proper call here? If I understand the "situation" correctly... Zero. He engaged the entire array (all target engaged), then performed the mandatory reload and engaged the other array after said reload. It was Comstock, so he could make up shots. To apply any procedurals, the word "only" would need to be properly written in the Procedure. The word "then" would be an added touch as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Tell me where it say THEN on this classifier http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/03-05.pdf It doesnt use the word THEN, but it does use the phrase, "whenever" that is a time word to specify a time, the WSB in the OP doesnt. It aslo doesnt use the word, BEFORE which you added in your previous post. Without any time or order words in the WSB, as long as sometime during the course of fire the shooter shoots all the targets and reloads he has complied. NO procedurals. You better hope I don't have the timer. Actually, I think he'd rather hope he doesn't get you or I on the arb committee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Just a small sample discussion from this weekend - want to see what people think the right call is: Stage consists of a box A, a plate rack straight away (backwall) with 6 plates and 2 MPP underneath it, on, the right birm and left birm there are two classics each, so 4 targets in the corners. Stage Description: Upon start signal, from Box-A only, engage paper targets with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. Steel or paper may be engaged first. Start is loaded and holstered. Situation: Shooter engages steel first shooting limited-10. Misses enough to leave 1 plate standing and an empty gun. Performs a mandatory reload, engages last plate, then shoots the 8 rounds at the paper targets. What's the proper call here? If I understand the "situation" correctly... Zero. He engaged the entire array (all target engaged), then performed the mandatory reload and engaged the other array after said reload. It was Comstock, so he could make up shots. To apply any procedurals, the word "only" would need to be properly written in the Procedure. The word "then" would be an added touch as well. I don't think you understand the "situation" correctly. The shooter re-engaged the steel after his reload. He would need to perform another reload prior to switching arrays. BTW... Ken, it's a berm, not a birm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Tell me where it say THEN on this classifier http://www.uspsa.org...fiers/03-05.pdf Read on. That classifier specifies... "A mandatory reload is required whenever changing arrays" This stage did not specify that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I don't think you understand the "situation" correctly. I wasn't there, and it is a bit vague in how it is written here. That is why I added the disclaimer. Maybe you can add some clarity, as you were there? Did the shooter engage the entire array of steel targets or not (before the reload)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I don't think you understand the "situation" correctly. I wasn't there, and it is a bit vague in how it is written here. That is why I added the disclaimer. Maybe you can add some clarity, as you were there? Did the shooter engage the entire array of steel targets or not (before the reload)? Well... I was not there but I was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 The shooter re-engaged the steel after his reload. He would need to perform another reload prior to switching arrays. Now that I understand (after your edit), I believe you are mistaken. It's Comstock. He can re-engage to his hearts delight. All his MUST do is engage the one array (which I now understand he did)...do a reload...and engage the other array. He meet that requirements of the Procedure. And, made up his Comstock shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 The shooter re-engaged the steel after his reload. He would need to perform another reload prior to switching arrays. Now that I understand (after your edit), I believe you are mistaken. It's Comstock. He can re-engage to his hearts delight. All his MUST do is engage the one array (which I now understand he did)...do a reload...and engage the other array. He meet that requirements of the Procedure. And, made up his Comstock shots. Nope. He did not do a reload after shooting the steel. (if I understand Ken's description) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 I don't think you understand the "situation" correctly. I wasn't there, and it is a bit vague in how it is written here. That is why I added the disclaimer. Maybe you can add some clarity, as you were there? Did the shooter engage the entire array of steel targets or not (before the reload)? Actually, Flex - the stage description is verbatim - i pulled it up and typed it exactly as it is stated, including NOT translating the ampersand to AND. as well as the "," is exactly where it is. The situation is spot on, if you want shots as they occured they were: Popper, miss, popper, plate(far left to right), miss, plate, miss, plate, plate, miss, plate (slide lock reload), plate, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 AND, DrawandDuck slept in the truck ALL day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 BTW... Ken, it's a berm, not a birm. I was wondering why the squiggle was under those words... or maybe I was just seeing who would pick on me about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 The shooter re-engaged the steel after his reload. He would need to perform another reload prior to switching arrays. Now that I understand (after your edit), I believe you are mistaken. It's Comstock. He can re-engage to his hearts delight. All his MUST do is engage the one array (which I now understand he did)...do a reload...and engage the other array. He meet that requirements of the Procedure. And, made up his Comstock shots. Let's hypo this for a second despite the fact I hate them - but lets say it's a revo shooter up there. And let's say they don't miss at all. They could go: popper, popper, plate, plate, plate, plate (reload) 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper, (reload), 2 paper, plate, plate and still be in compliance with the stage description Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Actually, Flex - the stage description is verbatim - i pulled it up and typed it exactly as it is stated, including NOT translating the ampersand to AND. as well as the "," is exactly where it is. The situation is spot on, if you want shots as they occured they were: Popper, miss, popper, plate(far left to right), miss, plate, miss, plate, plate, miss, plate (slide lock reload), plate, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper I am OK with your stage description, your "situation" is what is unclear for me (still). (this is not part of the discussion, just trying to understand what happened) For clarity sake...lets drill down a bit...lets say your stage was just the steel (no reload, no paper). And, lets say he shot his gun dry and then stopped. Would the situation call for a procedural for failing to engage one of the plates ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Yup, it was a point of concern in my squad as well (having shot the same stage as the OP and IMA45). A few of us felt that it would be several procedurals and the remainder agreed with this statement: the word then or after isnt in the WSB,,, He complied with the WSB, he shot the paper, he performed a reload, and he shot the steel, Nothing in that WSB says anything about when the reload must occur. WSB should read Engage the paper THEN mandatory reload THEN engage steel. Since the words THEN isnt in WSB you can do it when ever you want. Either way, it's a lesson learned for future stages, thanks for bringing it up. There are those that contend that the procedure is a list of tasks to be accomplished and as long as order is not explicitly defined by using a set of key words - like "THEN", that I've yet to see defined in a rule book somewhere, that order is to be to the shooter. To them, the WSB is equivalent to: Upon start signal, from box-A only, engage MPP1-2, engage P1-P6, perform a mandatory reload, engage T1-T4 and as long as those tasks are done by the end of the stage - we're all good. I contend, then that procedure has two tasks, engage paper targets, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. The directive "steel or paper targets may be engaged first" allows to move those key words front or back. In either case there are still two tasks. Engage a set of defined targets - RELOAD AND ENGAGE another set of the other type of targets. Because the shooter was STILL ENGAGING the first set of targets, they had not completed task one and therefore, because the "," is still a syntactical differentiator, they still have to do what follows it. ie, there is a difference between a mandatory reload and a situation required reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Instead of dragging flimsy hypotheticals into the discussion that have nothing to do with this, or classifiers that have no relevance because they have differing requirements, let's try to stick to the situation as presented. A link detailing the stage requirements was offered in post #5. This stage requires the shooter to engage an array, paper or steel, then perform a mandatory reload and engage the other array. The competitor ran dry on the first array and performed a reload so as to continue the same array. He would still need to perform the mandatory reload prior to engaging the other array. He didn't. That's a per-shot shot penalty per 10.2.4: 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Actually, Flex - the stage description is verbatim - i pulled it up and typed it exactly as it is stated, including NOT translating the ampersand to AND. as well as the "," is exactly where it is. The situation is spot on, if you want shots as they occured they were: Popper, miss, popper, plate(far left to right), miss, plate, miss, plate, plate, miss, plate (slide lock reload), plate, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper I am OK with your stage description, your "situation" is what is unclear for me (still). (this is not part of the discussion, just trying to understand what happened) For clarity sake...lets drill down a bit...lets say your stage was just the steel (no reload, no paper). And, lets say he shot his gun dry and then stopped. Would the situation call for a procedural for failing to engage one of the plates ? I think I know where this is going - but I'll play along. Yes. Because in that situation, one plate is standing that had not been engaged, so he'd get 1M 1P for failure to engage. This is no different than firing 4 rounds at the first MPP before hitting it then going clean the rest of the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I contend, then that procedure has two tasks, engage paper targets, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. The directive "steel or paper targets may be engaged first" allows to move those key words front or back. In either case there are still two tasks. Engage a set of defined targets - RELOAD AND ENGAGE another set of the other type of targets. Because the shooter was STILL ENGAGING the first set of targets, they had not completed task one and therefore, because the "," is still a syntactical differentiator, they still have to do what follows it. ie, there is a difference between a mandatory reload and a situation required reload. That I will clearly disagree with. We use...and always have...words like "only" and "then" for a reason...to make sure it is clear what the stage designer truly wants. It is on the stage designer to make this clear. And, those word are the proper tools to do so. They mean something, as does their omission. (I don't want to drift the thread, but I will later share how I could completely game this as it is written.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Instead of dragging flimsy hypotheticals into the discussion that have nothing to do with this, or classifiers that have no relevance because they have differing requirements, let's try to stick to the situation as presented. A link detailing the stage requirements was offered in post #5. This stage requires the shooter to engage an array, paper or steel, then perform a mandatory reload and engage the other array. The competitor ran dry on the first array and performed a reload so as to continue the same array. He would still need to perform the mandatory reload prior to engaging the other array. He didn't. That's a per-shot shot penalty per 10.2.4: 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. You added a "then" that wasn't in the WSB. If the WSB had said "then", I'd agree with you. Flex is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Actually, Flex - the stage description is verbatim - i pulled it up and typed it exactly as it is stated, including NOT translating the ampersand to AND. as well as the "," is exactly where it is. The situation is spot on, if you want shots as they occured they were: Popper, miss, popper, plate(far left to right), miss, plate, miss, plate, plate, miss, plate (slide lock reload), plate, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper I am OK with your stage description, your "situation" is what is unclear for me (still). (this is not part of the discussion, just trying to understand what happened) For clarity sake...lets drill down a bit...lets say your stage was just the steel (no reload, no paper). And, lets say he shot his gun dry and then stopped. Would the situation call for a procedural for failing to engage one of the plates ? I think I know where this is going - but I'll play along. Yes. Because in that situation, one plate is standing that had not been engaged, so he'd get 1M 1P for failure to engage. This is no different than firing 4 rounds at the first MPP before hitting it then going clean the rest of the run. OK...that is different from how I read that you presented what happened. The way it read to me was that he had engaged all the steel, just missed one. Thanks for clarifying. (I'll have to read again with that in mind...tomorrow.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (I don't want to drift the thread, but I will later share how I could completely game this as it is written.) I know exactly where you are going. Draw, fire 2 shots in the direction of the steel, reload and hose away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Actually, Flex - the stage description is verbatim - i pulled it up and typed it exactly as it is stated, including NOT translating the ampersand to AND. as well as the "," is exactly where it is. The situation is spot on, if you want shots as they occured they were: Popper, miss, popper, plate(far left to right), miss, plate, miss, plate, plate, miss, plate (slide lock reload), plate, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper I am OK with your stage description, your "situation" is what is unclear for me (still). (this is not part of the discussion, just trying to understand what happened) For clarity sake...lets drill down a bit...lets say your stage was just the steel (no reload, no paper). And, lets say he shot his gun dry and then stopped. Would the situation call for a procedural for failing to engage one of the plates ? I think I know where this is going - but I'll play along. Yes. Because in that situation, one plate is standing that had not been engaged, so he'd get 1M 1P for failure to engage. This is no different than firing 4 rounds at the first MPP before hitting it then going clean the rest of the run. OK...that is different from how I read that you presented what happened. The way it read to me was that he had engaged all the steel, just missed one. Thanks for clarifying. (I'll have to read again with that in mind...tomorrow.) It doesn't matter. The WSB didn't specify all the steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (I don't want to drift the thread, but I will later share how I could completely game this as it is written.) I know exactly where you are going. Draw, fire 2 shots in the direction of the steel, reload and hose away. Shoot everything, reload off the clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (I don't want to drift the thread, but I will later share how I could completely game this as it is written.) I know exactly where you are going. Draw, fire 2 shots in the direction of the steel, reload and hose away. Shoot everything, reload off the clock. Nope, you must reload between arrays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Instead of dragging flimsy hypotheticals into the discussion that have nothing to do with this, or classifiers that have no relevance because they have differing requirements, let's try to stick to the situation as presented. A link detailing the stage requirements was offered in post #5. This stage requires the shooter to engage an array, paper or steel, then perform a mandatory reload and engage the other array. The competitor ran dry on the first array and performed a reload so as to continue the same array. He would still need to perform the mandatory reload prior to engaging the other array. He didn't. That's a per-shot shot penalty per 10.2.4: 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Mark, If I'm the RM or on the arb committee, I'll overturn that call -- due to the vagueness of the stage description. As written, it requires a mandatory reload prior to engaging the paper, but there's nothing that requires that the mandatory reload come immediately prior to engaging the paper.... Just yesterday, during the shooter's briefing, while reading the stage descriptions, I pulled out a pen and inserted an "only" into the directions for a stage, to avoid just such a problem..... A lot of this can be avoided by having multiple experienced ROs walk the stages and tweak the descriptions as the match is being set in the morning. Three sets of eyes are better than one -- my butt's been saved many a time as a stage designer, when one of my fellow designers or match directors read the description, walked the stage and asked "Did you intend for this possibility" or "Had you considered offering this option? It would improve on the design." Sometimes you just need to change one or two words, sometimes you need to add a whole sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Just a small sample discussion from this weekend - want to see what people think the right call is: Stage consists of a box A, a plate rack straight away (backwall) with 6 plates and 2 MPP underneath it, on, the right birm and left birm there are two classics each, so 4 targets in the corners. Stage Description: Upon start signal, from Box-A only, engage paper targets with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. Steel or paper may be engaged first. Start is loaded and holstered. Situation: Shooter engages steel first shooting limited-10. Misses enough to leave 1 plate standing and an empty gun. Performs a mandatory reload, engages last plate, then shoots the 8 rounds at the paper targets. What's the proper call here? If I understand the "situation" correctly... Zero. He engaged the entire array (all target engaged), then performed the mandatory reload and engaged the other array after said reload. It was Comstock, so he could make up shots. To apply any procedurals, the word "only" would need to be properly written in the Procedure. The word "then" would be an added touch as well. I'm pretty much with Flex.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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