Fire forming and resizing

[cardiackid]

I have been reloading .223 for semi auto and 9mm for almost 2 years now and I'm finally getting into loading precision rounds for my bolt action .308 versus short range 3-gun/plinking rounds. I'll be reloading factory brass fired from my Remington 700 PSS in .308 for that same rifle. I've been to 6mmbr.com many times, but find myself overwhelmed at the amount of in depth information and often can't find the answers to simple questions. The question I have is with regard to "fire formed" cases and more in depth aspects of resizing cases (I've always full length resized for .223, etc as the majority of my brass is free range brass plus whatever I shot.) I'm just trying to gain some more knowledge about the process of tuning rounds for a specific rifle rather than mass production stuff like I have been doing.

My understanding of fire forming a case is that once you shoot any round through your bolt action rifle, the pressure has caused the casing to mold to your chamber since a bolt action headspaces off of the shoulder. This means that the shoulder of that fired round now fits my chamber near perfectly - correct?

Now, with regard to neck sizing versus full length. I understand that full length resizing will actually bump the shoulder back down to the factory spec (in any non-custom made die) - correct? Therefore if I am using brass fired through this rifle alone and reloading it for this rifle alone, I should only need to neck size it? What exactly does neck sizing do? My thought process would lead me to believe that all I would have to do is trim the neck back down to 2.005" if the rest of the case is already fire formed.

Also - I understand the importance of the crimp for semi-auto weapons, but is it worth putting a light factory crimp on ammo for bolt actions? My understanding of this is that it would be a little extra step to make sure that there is a consistent seal with equal pressure all around the bullet.

I'm sure I will have more questions in the future, but these seem to be the ones I'm stuck on and can't find concise answers for.

I have purchased the Hornady/Stony Point seating depth gauge and found it useful (although I think I could have managed fine just using a once-fired case with the slots cut in it to find where my ogive touches the lands). From this I have learned the importance of a comparator for a consistent measurement regarding ogive depth versus COAL depth. I think the last big thing I need to get is a chrono to insure my loads meet my desired muzzle velocity of ~2600fps for the 168s and ~2700 for the 175s (most data books I have seen use those measurements to calculate my drops, etc.)

Any other advice? Have I left any information out that you need? My goal is to make comparable to better than "factory match" ammo tuned for my weapon. I am not a benchrest/competition shooter and I'm not looking to invest hundreds more in gee whiz equipment that will get me 1/64th MOA more accuracy out of each round. Thanks.

[ORCA]

Let me start by recommending the book "The Precision Shooting Reloading Guide". It is the best book I've seen on loading for precision shooting. It will tell you the best procedures for different types of precision shooting. The first chapter is worth the price of the book.

Neck sizing is done with a neck sizing die, usually a bushing die. You select the bushing to give you the amount of neck tension you want. This will determine how tightly the bullet is held. With bolt guns you usually don't crimp the round.

With tactical bolt guns you usually full length resize because its more important the the gun function than you squeeze a few thousands more accuracy. With neck sized brass the fit is so tight any crud in the chamber can make it so the bolt won't close. You do set your dies up to work with your chamber so you bump the shoulder back only as far as you need to. You also trim your brass according to the length of your chamber.

You might want to checkout the reloading section of the Sniper Hide forum. It’s more strait forward than 6mmbr.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm

[Guy Neill]

Neck sizing, simply put - only resizes the neck of the case. You so want to set the shoulder back a minimal amount (say 0.003") to facilitate chambering the round.

If using pick-up brass, the first time reloading should likely be full length resized - then check if it needs trimming. Once trimmed, neck sizing will minimize the need to trim, but it will still be needed at some point since firing it will flow the brass forward, growing the case over some number of firings.

Crimping for a bolt action is normally not needed or wanted.

Guy

[cardiackid]

Thanks for clearing that up guys. I ended up stumbling upon the Sniper's Hide reloading forum late last night too and found a 5-thread walk through of how to get pretty good ammo. Starts with this thread here: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1696162&page=1 and includes photos, links to purchase any of the tools needed, etc. Some of his stuff seems like it may be a bit overkill, but I guess if you're doing some of those steps you're probably at a point where you appreciate the added benefit of doing it.

[Powder Finger]

My understanding of fire forming a case is that once you shoot any round through your bolt action rifle, the pressure has caused the casing to mold to your chamber since a bolt action headspaces off of the shoulder. This means that the shoulder of that fired round now fits my chamber near perfectly - correct?

It usually take a couple 3 firings to get a case blown out to a chamber.

Now, with regard to neck sizing versus full length. I understand that full length resizing will actually bump the shoulder back down to the factory spec (in any non-custom made die) - correct? Therefore if I am using brass fired through this rifle alone and reloading it for this rifle alone, I should only need to neck size it? What exactly does neck sizing do? My thought process would lead me to believe that all I would have to do is trim the neck back down to 2.005" if the rest of the case is already fire formed.

IMHO neck sizing only gains you problems.

You want to bump and resize each time.

But bumping back to "Factory spec" is not what you are after.

If you fire/neck size a few case about 2 or 3 times it should be pretty close to YOUR chamber. Get a tool to measure the case (no primer) from the base to the datum.

The avg of these cases is YOUR number.

Now you want to set your die up to bump that back .002-.003.

By doing this you don't oversize your brass and it will both live long and not grow a lot.

Also the trim is not super important unless it's too long then it's very bad.

You can make or buy a tool to measure this also, the neck portion of many chambers is pretty long.

Also - I understand the importance of the crimp for semi-auto weapons, but is it worth putting a light factory crimp on ammo for bolt actions? My understanding of this is that it would be a little extra step to make sure that there is a consistent seal with equal pressure all around the bullet.

You won't need to crimp on a bolt gun. What you do want is to size the neck to get the amount of neck tension on the bullet you want

I'm sure I will have more questions in the future, but these seem to be the ones I'm stuck on and can't find concise answers for.

I have purchased the Hornady/Stony Point seating depth gauge and found it useful (although I think I could have managed fine just using a once-fired case with the slots cut in it to find where my ogive touches the lands). From this I have learned the importance of a comparator for a consistent measurement regarding ogive depth versus COAL depth. I think the last big thing I need to get is a chrono to insure my loads meet my desired muzzle velocity of ~2600fps for the 168s and ~2700 for the 175s (most data books I have seen use those measurements to calculate my drops, etc.)

Any other advice? Have I left any information out that you need? My goal is to make comparable to better than "factory match" ammo tuned for my weapon. I am not a benchrest/competition shooter and I'm not looking to invest hundreds more in gee whiz equipment that will get me 1/64th MOA more accuracy out of each round. Thanks.

The chrono is a good puchase.

If you get a Redding F/L bushing die and a few bushings, a couple measuring tools, you should be able to make great ammo.

Also this site has lots of REAL WORLD no bs info you just need to decide what works for you.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/

You will be far ahead by making sure you get good brass and bullets, as no tool around is going to make bad ones good.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Powder Finger

[cardiackid]

Thanks for the info. Re-reading these posts and the how-to thread on sniper's hide has really cleared up a lot of stuff.

The one question I do have is with regard to the "bumping" of the shoulder. I ordered the Sinclair case shoulder/gauge thing that is designed to measure/work with the caliper block (same one that is used for the comparator measurements). Now, to make the most out of this tool, I'll need to take a 2-3 times fired case and then use the shoulder gauge to get a good measurement of where exactly my shoulder meets the chamber of my rifle. From here, it's just a matter of gradually seating my FL resizing die down in a "check and measure, check and measure, etc." method so that the resizing die tensions the neck and bumps the shoulder back to that .002/.003 increment - correct? IE, rather than inserting the resizing die all the way down until it kisses the shell holder and then backing off a quarter turn (or whatever the instructions recommend) only insert the resizing die down until it's bumping that case shoulder down to the desired measurement of .002/.003 back from flush with the chamber wall?

Thanks again.

[Powder Finger]

Thanks for the info. Re-reading these posts and the how-to thread on sniper's hide has really cleared up a lot of stuff.

The one question I do have is with regard to the "bumping" of the shoulder. I ordered the Sinclair case shoulder/gauge thing that is designed to measure/work with the caliper block (same one that is used for the comparator measurements). Now, to make the most out of this tool, I'll need to take a 2-3 times fired case and then use the shoulder gauge to get a good measurement of where exactly my shoulder meets the chamber of my rifle. From here, it's just a matter of gradually seating my FL resizing die down in a "check and measure, check and measure, etc." method so that the resizing die tensions the neck and bumps the shoulder back to that .002/.003 increment - correct? IE, rather than inserting the resizing die all the way down until it kisses the shell holder and then backing off a quarter turn (or whatever the instructions recommend) only insert the resizing die down until it's bumping that case shoulder down to the desired measurement of .002/.003 back from flush with the chamber wall?

Thanks again.

You got it. that's how I do it. And you have to go pretty slow like start with the die a turn or more out.

Also before the bump get's shorter it will get longer, and when that happens (gets longer)you are real close. Then start turning the die in just a degree or two. At this point I tighten the lock ring and tighten the die. Then if i need to down more I loosen the die then ring turn a little, tighten ring,die,test.

The rings that work best are the cross bolt style.

BTW be sure to do your measurements with the primmer out.

Not sure I follow the part you wrote that I bolded. It's the length of the back of the case to the point of the shoulder that is the DATUM line (I think it's .330.400 DIA) on a .308. It's easier to see a picture of that than describe it.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf

What you are measuring is called in the drawing HEAD SPACE.

don't get hung up on the acctual number you get as your tool will cahnge that.

Just always use that tool and keep one case unsized after fire forming it and use as reference.

The chamber wall dimension is controled by how the die was ground (IE diameter of case).

Edited March 16, 2011 by Powder Finger

[cardiackid]

You were describing exactly what I meant - what we didn't want was a shoulder that is 100% flush against the chamber dimensions leaving absolutely no room for any minor imperfections with the round/chamber (hence the reason for bumping the shoulder down .002/.003 rather than just checking the neck tension on a fired case and reloading it.)

[Powder Finger]

You were describing exactly what I meant - what we didn't want was a shoulder that is 100% flush against the chamber dimensions leaving absolutely no room for any minor imperfections with the round/chamber (hence the reason for bumping the shoulder down .002/.003 rather than just checking the neck tension on a fired case and reloading it.)

Correct, and also the deal is that when you don't bump the shoulder you do these, all bad.

1) Possibly move the shoulder with the bolt/chamber (bolts don't make good presses).

2) Whipe the lube off the bolt lugs (extra wear, gaulleing, etc..).

3) Whipe the lube off the bolt cam and reciever (extra wear, gaulleing, etc..)These surfaces now becomes the press.

4) In general the gun does not chamber or run smoothly and wears out prematurely.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Powder Finger

[ShooterSteve]

I would like to respectfully disagree with some of the above posts. Go to www.sinclairint.com and order their book on precision reloading. Fred Sinclair is a master bench rest shooter, and the people in his shop are all long range shooters. They do this stuff for a living and are pretty good at it. I use a small arbor press with Wilson dies, and neck size only. I never touch the body, and everything is fine. To fireform your rounds, load a light load of powder, and I mean a minimum book load, not some load you conjure up yourself, set your bullet hard onto the lands, and your brass will be formed in one firing. You set the bullet onto the lands to keep the brass from pushing forward when hit by the firing pin. This will cut down on the head space and help your brass safely last longer. If your brass is fireformed to that chamber, there won't be any imperfections. There are so many details in his book, and he covers them all very well. If you ever go to a bench rest match (and they are boring as hell,) you won't see very many people if any bumping this shoulder or that. The brass will be neck sized, a primer seated, charge thrown and a bullet seated, all with little arbor presses and no sizing done. I know different people do things their own way, but I followed the Sinclair path, and my 308 shoots in the 4s with 175smk and 44gr of Varget. This is with minimal work from a smith.

[Powder Finger]

I would like to respectfully disagree with some of the above posts. Go to www.sinclairint.com and order their book on precision reloading. Fred Sinclair is a master bench rest shooter, and the people in his shop are all long range shooters. They do this stuff for a living and are pretty good at it. I use a small arbor press with Wilson dies, and neck size only. I never touch the body, and everything is fine. To fireform your rounds, load a light load of powder, and I mean a minimum book load, not some load you conjure up yourself, set your bullet hard onto the lands, and your brass will be formed in one firing. You set the bullet onto the lands to keep the brass from pushing forward when hit by the firing pin. This will cut down on the head space and help your brass safely last longer. If your brass is fireformed to that chamber, there won't be any imperfections. There are so many details in his book, and he covers them all very well. If you ever go to a bench rest match (and they are boring as hell,) you won't see very many people if any bumping this shoulder or that. The brass will be neck sized, a primer seated, charge thrown and a bullet seated, all with little arbor presses and no sizing done. I know different people do things their own way, but I followed the Sinclair path, and my 308 shoots in the 4s with 175smk and 44gr of Varget. This is with minimal work from a smith.

I don't disagree with any of what Steve says. I just think the OP want's better performing ammo and not get into benchrest (which is boring to me also) I also don't think he was looking to get into BR loading tools.

All info is good as long as the person using it can weed through what they want to acomplish.

I would not say neck only is the way to go, and don't think it's always the accepted way even in BR, Tony Boyer seems to do O.K. FL sizing.

[highxj]

Yep, many of the BR guys are FL sizing now....but with dies that are cut very close to their chambers for minimal sizing. For my varmint bolt guns, I still like to neck size until the cases start getting a tad snug to chamber, then I bump the shoulders back .001" to .002" in a FL die.

One thing I highly recommend for accurate, consistent FL sizing are the Redding competition shell holders. They come in a set of 5, cut to increasing depths in increments of .002" over the standard .125". This lets you adjust your FL die for a firm cam-over on the shell holder while bumping the shoulder the desired amount. It's *much* more consistent than simply backing out the FL die and absolutely repeatable.

Another tip for getting your baseline measurement on a fired case..no need to de-prime it, simply re-seat the fired primer with your hand priming tool, or whatever method you use for priming..it's quicker and accomplishes the same thing, which is making sure no protrusion on/of the primer screws up your measurement.

[Powder Finger]

Yep, many of the BR guys are FL sizing now....but with dies that are cut very close to their chambers for minimal sizing. For my varmint bolt guns, I still like to neck size until the cases start getting a tad snug to chamber, then I bump the shoulders back .001" to .002" in a FL die.

One thing I highly recommend for accurate, consistent FL sizing are the Redding competition shell holders. They come in a set of 5, cut to increasing depths in increments of .002" over the standard .125". This lets you adjust your FL die for a firm cam-over on the shell holder while bumping the shoulder the desired amount. It's *much* more consistent than simply backing out the FL die and absolutely repeatable.

Another tip for getting your baseline measurement on a fired case..no need to de-prime it, simply re-seat the fired primer with your hand priming tool, or whatever method you use for priming..it's quicker and accomplishes the same thing, which is making sure no protrusion on/of the primer screws up your measurement.

I have never gotten my head around the CAM-OVER technique. I don't think it's a thread drift since it's has to do with the OP's question.

If you don't mind can you say what exactly this does, why it does it, and why it's gooder?

Thanks

[cardiackid]

OP says this is all good stuff - digs into areas I hadn't that about.

I took my first fired cases (new Winchester brass, 168gr SMK with 42gr of Varget) and measured them with the shoulder gauge I got from Sinclair (I did get a couple of smaller tools - chamber length gauge, shoulder gauge, etc.) There was a decent amount of variance between the shoulders on the fired cases. Out of the 8 I measured, I got everything from 2.1645 to 2.170 (the measurement includes the shoulder gauge) and that was just a small sampling from the 30 rounds I fired that day. I wasn't extremely meticulous with the powder throwing - got it in the ballpark of +/- .2 grains or so, but those weren't built as precision rounds. Bullet seating was done by COAL as well, as I don't have a comparator at the moment (Sinclar is backordered). I couldn't find anything other than 150gr soft point rounds at the store so I went with a reliable recipe and threw some together by SAAMI spec.

I'm taking it that I should neck tension these, reload (again at 42gr of Varget or so) and jam the bullet as Shooter Steve mentioned to help build good pressure in the chamber and get the full stretch out of the shoulder? Logic is telling me that I don't have enough consistency with the measurements to confirm that I am at my ideal shoulder length.

Also - bought a chamber length gauge as well and found that my Remington 700PSS (still with factory action/barrel) has a chamber length of 2.055" which is .050" above the trim-to length of 2.005". Is it common for factory guns to have this much tolerance with regard to neck length? I'm guessing it has to do something with being able to safely accept all the various factory produced ammunition out there?

Thanks for the help

Edited March 17, 2011 by cardiackid

[highxj]

Yep, many of the BR guys are FL sizing now....but with dies that are cut very close to their chambers for minimal sizing. For my varmint bolt guns, I still like to neck size until the cases start getting a tad snug to chamber, then I bump the shoulders back .001" to .002" in a FL die.

One thing I highly recommend for accurate, consistent FL sizing are the Redding competition shell holders. They come in a set of 5, cut to increasing depths in increments of .002" over the standard .125". This lets you adjust your FL die for a firm cam-over on the shell holder while bumping the shoulder the desired amount. It's *much* more consistent than simply backing out the FL die and absolutely repeatable.

Another tip for getting your baseline measurement on a fired case..no need to de-prime it, simply re-seat the fired primer with your hand priming tool, or whatever method you use for priming..it's quicker and accomplishes the same thing, which is making sure no protrusion on/of the primer screws up your measurement.

I have never gotten my head around the CAM-OVER technique. I don't think it's a thread drift since it's has to do with the OP's question.

If you don't mind can you say what exactly this does, why it does it, and why it's gooder?

Thanks

Well...raise your ram, screw the FL die down onto the shell holder, and size a case. Measure the base to datum line length with the Stony Point/Hornady tool or some other sort of comparator. Now lower the FL die another eighth or quarter turn or so until there is a definite snap when the ram is raised all the way as the linkage cams over. Size the case again and remeasure, and the shoulder will be pushed back farther.

There is a surprising amount of 'spring' in the press frame, and 'camming over' eliminates it or rather utilizes it, but generally pushes back the shoulder on your brass more than you want. That's where the Redding shell holders come in. You can use the cam over to make your sizing more consistent while using shell holders to adjust your headspace. It really works, they are slick.

Just backing out your die to adjust shoulder position works generally, but it's not real consistent. Slight differences in brass hardness and amount of sizing lube can and will cause a variation in measurement. Using a hard cam-over and eliminating the frame spring from the equation and using the Redding shell holders just results in more consistent sizing.

[ShooterSteve]

That is a good technique to try. I do all of my 308 reloading on an arbor press, but with a new gas gun, I will be looking at a conversion kit for my 650 and will have to keep this in mind. It is interesting how things change. Shooters are an interesting breed, never satisfied, and always looking for a better way. When I posted about the Sinclair method, I did it because the book goes into such detail, and backs up it's theories. Fred Sinclair had a lot of success with it, so I went that route and it worked like a charm for me. Other shooters are going to experiment, and I think that is great for the sport. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Graham Smith]

I have not spent as much time digging into this as a lot of people have, but here's my two cents worth just the same.

At lot of this super-fine-tuning stuff is written by and for bench rest shooters who are loading using a high end single stage or arbor press and are looking for micrometer level accuracy. The bullets are loaded within a fraction of a fraction of an inch of the lands in a single shot bolt action rifle and each component is weighed to within 0.01 gr. These guys want and need super consistency because they are trying to do 1/4" groups at 800yds.

If this does not sound like you, then a lot of this really fussy stuff is probably not going to make that much difference to you and is probably a waste of your time and money.

Your mileage may vary.

[highxj]

I have not spent as much time digging into this as a lot of people have, but here's my two cents worth just the same.

At lot of this super-fine-tuning stuff is written by and for bench rest shooters who are loading using a high end single stage or arbor press and are looking for micrometer level accuracy. The bullets are loaded within a fraction of a fraction of an inch of the lands in a single shot bolt action rifle and each component is weighed to within 0.01 gr. These guys want and need super consistency because they are trying to do 1/4" groups at 800yds.

If this does not sound like you, then a lot of this really fussy stuff is probably not going to make that much difference to you and is probably a waste of your time and money.

Your mileage may vary.

It's a whole 'nother game Graham, and an interesting one at that. There are so many different facets to the shooting sports, and I've enjoyed many of them. After shooting nothing but handguns for fun and profit for a half dozen years, my interests changed and for the last dozen years I began focusing on and designing small caliber wildcat varmint cartridges. I used every precision loading technique available to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of my highly tuned bolt rifles. It's all part of the game.

True, lots of these techniques are wasted on a factory Rem 700 with it's $12 barrel and generous factory chamber, but I wouldn't exactly call them a waste of time. It's an enjoyable part of the hobby. But minimizing case sizing will enhance accuracy and case life, and there is often much to be gained by finding that perfect bullet seating depth even in a factory barrel.

Steve, I'm with you on the arbor press and Wilson dies. I load lots of my stuff on them using custom dies cut with my chambering reamers. But it still amazes me how well a decent AR can shoot with all the slam bang stuff going on, using ammo thrown together on a progressive machine, with hardly any regard to case prep or any other accuracy enhancing loading techniques. They are wonderful machines

[Powder Finger]

OP says this is all good stuff - digs into areas I hadn't that about.

I'm taking it that I should neck tension these, reload (again at 42gr of Varget or so) and jam the bullet as Shooter Steve mentioned to help build good pressure in the chamber and get the full stretch out of the shoulder? Logic is telling me that I don't have enough consistency with the measurements to confirm that I am at my ideal shoulder length.

Thanks for the help

I would be careful taking a load and just jamming the bullet, the pressure can and probably will go way up.

IMO I would work up to that you will probably be adding powder as you seat longer up to the point your on the lands.

Then I would back off a grain or more then with that load hit the lands.

[Powder Finger]

Yep, many of the BR guys are FL sizing now....but with dies that are cut very close to their chambers for minimal sizing. For my varmint bolt guns, I still like to neck size until the cases start getting a tad snug to chamber, then I bump the shoulders back .001" to .002" in a FL die.

One thing I highly recommend for accurate, consistent FL sizing are the Redding competition shell holders. They come in a set of 5, cut to increasing depths in increments of .002" over the standard .125". This lets you adjust your FL die for a firm cam-over on the shell holder while bumping the shoulder the desired amount. It's *much* more consistent than simply backing out the FL die and absolutely repeatable.

Another tip for getting your baseline measurement on a fired case..no need to de-prime it, simply re-seat the fired primer with your hand priming tool, or whatever method you use for priming..it's quicker and accomplishes the same thing, which is making sure no protrusion on/of the primer screws up your measurement.

I have never gotten my head around the CAM-OVER technique. I don't think it's a thread drift since it's has to do with the OP's question.

If you don't mind can you say what exactly this does, why it does it, and why it's gooder?

Thanks

Well...raise your ram, screw the FL die down onto the shell holder, and size a case. Measure the base to datum line length with the Stony Point/Hornady tool or some other sort of comparator. Now lower the FL die another eighth or quarter turn or so until there is a definite snap when the ram is raised all the way as the linkage cams over. Size the case again and remeasure, and the shoulder will be pushed back farther.

There is a surprising amount of 'spring' in the press frame, and 'camming over' eliminates it or rather utilizes it, but generally pushes back the shoulder on your brass more than you want. That's where the Redding shell holders come in. You can use the cam over to make your sizing more consistent while using shell holders to adjust your headspace. It really works, they are slick.

Just backing out your die to adjust shoulder position works generally, but it's not real consistent. Slight differences in brass hardness and amount of sizing lube can and will cause a variation in measurement. Using a hard cam-over and eliminating the frame spring from the equation and using the Redding shell holders just results in more consistent sizing.

I was under the impression the Redding shell holder only got taller not shorter? That would put more case in the die.

[highxj]

Lots of people have that impression, but the +.002 through +.010 Reddings are cut that much deeper, reducing the case insertion into the die by that amount.

I wish something similar was made for progressives, but for those we are stuck with the old imprecise "back out the die a little and measure" method.

[Powder Finger]

Lots of people have that impression, but the +.002 through +.010 Reddings are cut that much deeper, reducing the case insertion into the die by that amount.

I wish something similar was made for progressives, but for those we are stuck with the old imprecise "back out the die a little and measure" method.

Cool deal now that whole technique makes much more sense.

[Graham Smith]

But it still amazes me how well a decent AR can shoot with all the slam bang stuff going on, using ammo thrown together on a progressive machine, with hardly any regard to case prep or any other accuracy enhancing loading techniques.

That's kind of where I was going. I loaded up a bunch of .223 ammo on a 550b using used range brass and 69gr SMK bullets and went to three day sniper class with my 18" barrel AR with an inexpensive scope that had never been properly zeroed. Everyone else had bolt action .308's shooting Federal Match 168gr ammo and there were several experienced SWAT guys in the class. Now, I'm not going to pretend that I out shot any of them but from 100yd to 600yds, I was able to hold my own fairly well and keep all the bullets on the target.

I think my point is, until you start reaching the limit of what you can do with "normal" ammo, all the additional prep work and precision is pretty much lost. For example, how many people have taken the time to tweak their loads to find the sweet spot for their rifle / powder / bullet combo? It's not hard to do and can increase your accuracy without the need for any special equipment (other than a chronograph) or techniques.

But, like I said, your mileage may vary.

[ShooterSteve]

Powder finger, if you read my post, I don't just take a charge and jam my bullet. Take a light load, seat your bullets on the lands and you get a perfectly fire formed case. It does not need a shoulder bump in case of imperfections. It will be perfectly formed to your chamber, and your chamber only. Yes you WILL get a pressure spike, but with a very light charge, it will be within the pressure limits for that caliber. That is why I said to use a very low book loading, and not just conjure something up yourself..This is a SOP for BR and long range shooting. I STILL recommend the Sinclair book on reloading-"Precision Loading and Shooting Handbook" to everyone who has not read it. Then good information can be shared, from professional shooters, who have done a lot of research into the subject.

[Powder Finger]

Powder finger, if you read my post, I don't just take a charge and jam my bullet. Take a light load, seat your bullets on the lands and you get a perfectly fire formed case. It does not need a shoulder bump in case of imperfections. It will be perfectly formed to your chamber, and your chamber only. Yes you WILL get a pressure spike, but with a very light charge, it will be within the pressure limits for that caliber. That is why I said to use a very low book loading, and not just conjure something up yourself..This is a SOP for BR and long range shooting. I STILL recommend the Sinclair book on reloading-"Precision Loading and Shooting Handbook" to everyone who has not read it. Then good information can be shared, from professional shooters, who have done a lot of research into the subject.

Got ya, I was refering to cardiackid post #14 as it looked like he was going to just take a previous load and then jam a bullet.

That said since I don't have a clue where 42.0 of Varget/168SMK is at pressure wise in his gun.

Don't disagree with any info in this tread really, just want to make sure focusing on the end result won't over shadow basic loading safety

Edited March 18, 2011 by Powder Finger