Battering in 1911, or 2011

[twodownzero]

I haven't changed stances at all, G-man. As usual, you're arguing with a straw man.

Nobody has demonstrated any difference between spring rate and wear. My position is that you won't, because that isn't the purpose of the recoil spring.

Want empirical evidence? Buy a few guns and a few hundred thousand rounds. Put an 18 lb spring in one and an 8 lb spring in the other one. I'd bet there's no rifling left in either barrel before the slide's surface where the guide rod hits it is worn out to the point that the slide needs to be replaced.

Frame battering, thus far, appears to be like a unicorn--no such thing. The best evidence the other side has is the suggestion that I smash two pieces of metal together until they peen. But I've already got a bunch of guns that have been doing just that for tens of thousands of rounds, with no demonstrable wear to date. Do you have any evidence otherwise, G-man? I highly doubt it, but as always, I'm open to whatever data you may have.

[Seth]

Browning KNEW the spring slowed the slide and went as far as to describe its function in the patents for his pistols.

"The breech block or bolt carrier slides to and fro, being impelled in one direction by the energy of the recoil and in the other direction by a reaction-spring, and in its movements it extracts and ejects the empty shell, moves the hammer to the fullcock position, and introduces a fresh cartridge into the chamber of the barrel."

"The piston is preferably tubular to receive a spring which bears at its forward end against an internal shoulder and projects rearwardly somewhat beyond the rear end of said piston, so that when the breech block or bolt carrier and the piston move rearwardly, compressing the reaction-spring, the end of the spring , which is quite stiff, strikes the solid partition at the end of the chamber of and serves as a buffer or cushion to diminish the shock."

Restating... one more time, then I quit. Frame/ Slide battering is happening every time the slide hits the guide rod head. Is it a lot? No. The firing pin stop, the mainspring and the recoil spring all work against the inertia of the slide and the recoil spring has to be light enough to allow for the slide to fully open and heavy enough for it to close. The weight of the recoil spring can vary substantially and still provide for proper function. Changing the spring will have an effect on the lifespan of the parts.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Seth

[G-ManBart]

I haven't changed stances at all, G-man. As usual, you're arguing with a straw man.

Frame battering, thus far, appears to be like a unicorn--no such thing. The best evidence the other side has is the suggestion that I smash two pieces of metal together until they peen. But I've already got a bunch of guns that have been doing just that for tens of thousands of rounds, with no demonstrable wear to date. Do you have any evidence otherwise, G-man? Yeah, a gun with a cracked frame and slide, and having seen other guns with cracked frames...at the guide rod seat. That proves they will break, and often where they'll break. Anything that makes the parts hit harder, will accelerate that. I highly doubt it, but as always, I'm open to whatever data you may have.

Not changing your stance?

I don't think that there's any evidence that a recoil spring serves as a decelerator or a shock absorber. The recoil spring is there to store energy to push the slide back forward...not as a shock absorber or a decelerator.

I'm not backpedaling at all. The primary purpose of the recoil spring is to push the slide closed when the recoil event is complete. Any secondary effect of decelerating the slide is just that--secondary. A post ago, there was no evidence it did that at all! It is self evident that it takes more energy to compress a spring that stores more energy.

There's no doubt that it takes more energy to compress a heavier spring. It's whether the difference is sufficiently significant to wear the gun faster that I really wonder. All springs are going to slow the slide. Oh, so now it does slow the slide, and a heavier spring will absorb more energy.

That's nearly a 180* change...

JMB designed the gun, and said the recoil spring served as a buffer....period (by period, I don't mean only as a buffer). No need for further questions about whether it was intended to slow the slide or not.

He called the recoil spring, the recoil reaction spring....meaning the spring reacted to (resisted) recoil. He didn't call it the "energy saving only to close the slide spring". Yes, it certainly closes the slide, but that's not the only important thing it does. R,

Edited December 26, 2010 by G-ManBart

[twodownzero]

The recoil spring will serve as a buffer regardless of its spring rate. In fact, if the slide didn't bottom out, it wouldn't be a "buffer" at all.

[Chris Keen]

I've been away enjoying the holidays with my family, but my my my, what have I missed while I was gone!

My gun above showed no wear at 20K...so Chris's gun may or may not last longer...it's still just one (or two) data points, where many (dozens, hundreds, etc) are needed to come up with anything remotely close to proof.

Just to be clear I was merely talking about wear and tear on a guide-rod head in 20K rounds and nothing more here. It was more of an hypothetical situation, anyways. But for the purposes of full disclosure, the gun in question (my gun) actually has over 50K rounds on it. And that's with a 10# spring & a CP shok-buff installed. Yes Chris, I know there's no free lunch, and therefore I run a shok-buff to protect my frame against excessive battering from such a light spring.

But like you said, we competition shooters are not looking for longevity in our pistols (most of us anyways). I'll run whatever spring I think tracks the sights the best. However after 50K rounds I see no signs of any peening, not on the guide rod, nor the frame.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Chris Keen

[Seth]

But like you said, we competition shooters are not looking for longevity in our pistols (most of us anyways). I'll run whatever spring I think tracks the sights the best. However after 50K rounds I see no signs of any peening, not on the guide rod, nor the frame.

Brings up a valuable point. I've only destroyed one guide rod head. It was probably soft... especially compared to the slide that was ramming into it who's hardness is a known quantity. My high (ish) round count frames and slides look basically fine, otherwise. The edges have softed around the mating surfaces... but so have mine!

Funny, you'd think with all the rounds I've been able to poop down pipe in the last few years I'd be better..................sigh. Back to dry fire and less arguing on the internet.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Seth

[G-ManBart]

The recoil spring will serve as a buffer regardless of its spring rate. In fact, if the slide didn't bottom out, it wouldn't be a "buffer" at all.

And a heavier spring will be more of a buffer than a lighter spring...this is simple physics.

The second part is completely wrong. If the slide stops, without the spring bottoming out, it was stopped because the spring was more buffer than necessary. You don't want the spring to "bottom" out, because that will mean it's in coil bind, and can cause wear/damage quickly.

[twodownzero]

The recoil spring will serve as a buffer regardless of its spring rate. In fact, if the slide didn't bottom out, it wouldn't be a "buffer" at all.

And a heavier spring will be more of a buffer than a lighter spring...this is simple physics.

I don't know what you're defining as a buffer, but a spring, regardless of rate, has the same hardness and the "buffer" effect will be the same.

Compressing a spring to coil bind is going to have the same effect regardless of its rate.

[G-ManBart]

I don't know what you're defining as a buffer, but a spring, regardless of rate, has the same hardness and the "buffer" effect will be the same.

Compressing a spring to coil bind is going to have the same effect regardless of its rate.

You seem to have a misunderstanding in how the system works (edit to add: that's not to suggest I understand it all). The slide doesn't stop because of the spring going solid...more below.

The spring compressing is the buffer, by absorbing/storing energy.

The spring should never go solid, i.e. coil bind, where all of the coils are stacked solidly against one another. Take the slide off your 1911/2011, compress the recoil spring by pushing forward on the guide rod head. Watch how the coils get closer to one another. They get very close to solidly contacting one another, right at the end, but not quite...this is the goal. When the guide rod head is in contact with the back of the tunnel that holds the reverse plug, the spring is as compressed as it can possibly be (installed, of course). When the slide stops it's rearward travel, it does so because the slide makes contact with the guide rod head, not because the spring goes solid and stops it. If the spring does go solid, and stops the slide, it will usually crack the bottom of the tunnel that holds the reverse plug before too long...it wasn't meant to work that way. This is what happens when you get coil bind on a 1911/2011 recoil spring:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46713&view=findpost&p=534250

So, when the slide moves back, it transfers energy to the spring, and the spring stores it. Because the spring is pushing against the guide rod head, and the guide rod head is seated/pushing on the frame, it will transfer some of the energy to the frame as it compresses, but it still stores a bunch of energy that doesn't make it to the frame. The stiffer the spring, the more energy it can store by slowing the slide down more before the slide contacts the guide rod head and transfers the leftover energy to the frame. The spring is a buffer, which reduces how much energy gets transferred to the frame.

Just FYI, springs actually aren't all the same hardness. They use different wire composition and thickness along with different heat treating to create different weight springs. I'd guess they're fairly similar, but they're not actually all the same hardness. R,

Edited December 26, 2010 by G-ManBart

[sirveyr]

just checking in.

How many photos we got so far?

I've got some Bigfoot photos I could post.

[G-ManBart]

It's kind of funny, but there are lots of pictures posted here of 1911/2011s that have had major failures...these are threads with just cracked slides to show the areas to look for (what the OP asked about). Some folks have documented multiple failures without posting pictures...I think Scirocco38 posted that he's cracked four slides on Open guns. No Bigfoot photos needed...we've got plenty of broken gun pictures instead!

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110624&view=findpost&p=1255818

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74555&view=findpost&p=863160

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63802&view=findpost&p=741318

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53465&view=findpost&p=616968

[twodownzero]

just checking in.

How many photos we got so far?

I've got some Bigfoot photos I could post.

Seen any unicorns lately?

[DougCarden]

FWIW.....

in 96-98 I shot a Para framed .45 open gun, with a big tasco can for Pins.....That gun won A class 9pin, B class 9pin, ad C class 9Pin at one of the US PIN Nationals in Waterloo Iowa....maybe Carmoney can remember what year exactly...(Mike was A class winner, Denny Green was B class winner, and I was C class winner.... )

3 port comp, nowlin barrel, all the bells and whistles.

I shot about 2500 185gr jhps through it at 195PF, and then started shooting 215 LSWC at 1050PF....In 5K running an 18lb recoil spring the gun had battered itself.

The recoil lugs on the top of the barrel were peened, and the raceway inside the top of the slide showed major damage. The lug area in the side had been widened and opened up. My Smith showed me where the metal had been peened, pushed away, and the permanent damage it had caused by "improper barrel fitting".

It may have been a metalurgy problem as well, but it did beat itself up to the point it would not function, and the Smith then installed a new slide/barrel and I shot the bat sh@# out of the guns, mostly 235 SWC bullets at 950fps or so...with no damage when I switched it back to a LTD gun.

Boy do I wish had taken a picture.....

DougC