Poor shooting with Glock 19...

[famous187]

So, I've put about 300-400 rounds through my Glock 19 so far. This is the first handgun I've ever shot and I'm pretty terrible at it, haha. From about 10yds I can occasionally get decent groups but they are always LOW and to the LEFT. I'm talking 6-8" low and 3 or 4" left of where I'm aiming. Thinking it could be the sights I installed (Warren Sevigny Comps) I let my buddy shoot it. Now, he is even less experience than me in shooting handguns. His groups were ALOT tighter and about 2-3" left of point of aim (2" bullseye). Any idea on what I'm doing wrong? I also took my brand new Colt 1911 Rail Gun .45acp and the FIRST time I ever shot it I put a decent 5 shot group inside the 9 ring. With more trigger time behind the 1911 I have a lot of confidence that I could get even better. With the Glock, I have ZERO confidence, hoping you guys can help me out a little.

Thanks

[iainmcphersn]

With Glocks, especially if you're used to a light short trigger pull (like a 1911), it's very common to push the trigger left at end of the stroke. This tends to throw the shots low and left. I used to have my sights drifted all the way to the right to compensate but now keep them centered.

Dry fire the gun and pay close attention to the front sight. Any wiggle is too much.

Good luck!

[slippp]

Low and to the left sounds like overgripping with your left hand and jerking the trigger on the pull. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

It's a lot easier to shoot the 1911 over the glock because of the trigger feel. I had the same problem with my 1911 and my Glock 17.

What was recommended to me was simply pick either gun and practice with that gun only. Pick one or the other.

[G-ManBart]

This is an extremely common problem for all shooter, but Glocks and other guns that require a long trigger press seem to make it worse. I did a writeup in another thread that I'll cut and paste, as well as add the link so you can read the other responses.

The short, short version is that you're starting to press the trigger a bit, then stop while you line up the sights, then when you get the sights lined up in the center, you press the trigger the rest of the way. That acceleration of the trigger moves the gun low and left, and that's where the bullet goes. Here's the more detailed answer:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108104&view=findpost&p=1231945

Okay, here's the writeup (I'll still look for the link)....your mileage may vary!

Pre-ignition push correction:

First off, I’ll say that different things are going to work for different people, so what I suggest may or may not help, but it’s worth exploring. I can say that some variation or combination of these has always worked when I’ve had someone who really wanted to get better. Further, I'm certainly no Benos, or other amazing shooter, so take this for what it's worth, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week at Area-5

Whenever possible, if I’m helping someone with a pre-ignition push, I like to have them shoot a .22lr. I normally work with folks who are already at the range and may have just shot poorly on a qualification course. In other words, they’re warmed up and doing whatever it is that’s causing the problem by the time we talk. If I’m going to work with someone at the start of the day I’ll let them shoot a bit to show me the problem. At that point I’ll hand them a .22 and, if possible, have them shoot a group off a rest. Normally the very first shot will be a pre-ignition push, that’s really obvious, and they’ll say something like “oh, that’s what I’m doing wrong”. Essentially, that’s the first time they’ve ever called a shot. It didn’t go where they wanted it to, but at least they know where it went. They may have been “flinching” for years and simply didn’t know what it looked like. After that I’ll let them shoot a couple of magazines (still with the .22) to get comfortable and maybe have them shoot a freestyle group or two from 25yds so they see it’s actually easy to keep all their hits inside something the size or our A-zone if you don’t have bad habits. At that point I’ll have them go back to their normal gun, and start with slower, controlled shots and have them work up in speed. Normally within a mag or two they’ll throw one low and left and they’ll look at me and say “I knew it”. That awareness is the key to fixing the problem….you’ve got to see it, to fix it. At the very least, at this point, they’re aware of the problem and know it when it happens.

As something of an aside, if they didn’t see it when they had the pre-ignition push with the .22, it means they’re blinking, and that’s a different problem….short answer, double plug/muff, stick with the .22 and have them think about the corners of their eyes while shooting the gun in the general vicinity of the target. Steel, or another reactive target (clay birds, etc) seems to help some folks with this as they want to see the hit so they’re less likely to blink. Indoors and loud guns (hey Open shooters!) make this worse.

Now they know what it looks like when things go wrong, and it’s time to work on making things go right…by learning to consistently call shots. I’ll have folks shoot at nothing but the backstop and have them track the front sight, i.e. don’t tell me where the shot went, tell me what the front sight did. I then like for them to shoot deliberate shots with the sights intentionally misaligned. Put a target at something like 15-20yds, and have them make the sight picture so the front sight appears to be nearly touching either side of the notch in the rear sight. Do the same with the front sight well above the top and well below the top of the rear sight…enough that you can see it’s high or low from the side. They’re usually pretty shocked that they get hits near the center of the target with the sights poorly aligned. Then I’ll have them shoot deliberate shots (start the trigger press and never stop until it breaks) while moving their hands in a circle (seems to usually be more of an oval) …imagine tracing a circle 5” in diameter around the A-zone with your front sight. Keep the hands moving as the shot breaks. Again, people are surprised how close to the center the hits are. All of this teaches the brain that if you have a decent trigger press, and even reasonably well aligned sights on the target, you’re going to get solid hits (for USPSA/IDPA type targets and distances). If you can hit the A-zone while making a 5” circle with the gun, you can certainly hit it if the gun is moving a tiny fraction of an inch in your wobble zone while holding it freestyle!

Now our shooter’s brain knows that the sights don’t have to be “perfect” to get a good hit up to a certain point. This is why a good shooter can rip off crazy fast splits on close targets. They learn that at something like 3-5yds, you only very generally need to see the sights aligned to get good hits….just a flash that everything is in sorta the right place and your brain will press the trigger for you. You will gradually learn how much you can and can not accept and still make the shot required at the moment.

I talk about this last part, because the vast majority of people I see struggling with this problem are stopping their trigger press to get the sights lined up “just right” and then accelerating/mashing through the trigger when things look perfect (snatching the shot). Once you stop the trigger press you are starting from zero and it’s similar to simply smashing the trigger from the fully forward/reset position…not quite as bad, but close to it. If you brain knows that the sight picture is acceptable, you can simply just press smoothly and let the hits happen even though visually the sights appear to be moving around a lot on the target.

To help with that last one, I’ll sometimes have people shoot with a target backwards “just hit the cardboard anywhere”….and since they’re not so focused on that one little spot in the center, and getting the sights perfectly aligned with it, they’ll shoot a nice group. When we teach low light we often get folks that shoot a fist-sized knot on their target and they can barely see the target…there’s a lesson in that!

There is one demonstration that I’ll do that doesn’t require a gun, and it proves that everyone is a “flincher”. I learned it from a guy in San Antonio who happened to have an Olympic Gold Medal for pistol shooting on his mantle….I may have to get someone to volunteer so we can video it and post it online. Basically, it involves me pushing on someone’s outstretched palm. I tell them I’m going to gently bump their hand…and I do that a few times until they get used to it. Then, while still talking, I miss their hand, and they about fall on their face. The next time, I tell them which time I’m going to miss and they still flinch a little. That’s what we’re dealing with when we shoot. Your body knows it’s going to get a push, and it wants to stay in balance, so it’s going to push back…you just have to make that happen after ignition and things will be great!

This post has been edited by G-ManBart: 16 June 2010 - 10:39 PM

[jmurch]

When I switched from a 226 to a G17 I got an hour of instruction to get going since I'd never owned a Glock before. The instructor told me almost first thing about low and left on Glocks. His recommendation was make sure you don't have too much finger in the trigger housing. I backed out my tigger finger so I was pressing the trigger with just the pad of my finger and that fixed the problem for me.

Jeff

[slippp]

I backed out my tigger finger so I was pressing the trigger with just the pad of my finger and that fixed the problem for me.

This is how all trigger pulls should be.

[Biloxi23]

Bart is right, as usually is. Your probelem sounds like a PIP, and I have encountered this numerous times while teaching LEO's. It can be exagerated by using too much finger through the triggerguard. Make sure that your trigger is not against teh let sid eof the frame. Your finger pushing against the frame when you begin to move the trigger to the rear will help move the muzzle to the left. Also, in combination, you may be anticipating the the round going off. Practice, paractice paractice. Make one good, slow shot. Then make another one. To shoot fast, just shorten the interval between the shots. Sounds simkple, huh? It really is, but the application takes practice.

[biga9999]

Having the same problem. Probably had 50-60 seconds added onto my total time this past weekend b/c of my pistol shooting.

Not blaming the pistol, but the shooter. My life does not allow practice right now, so the matches the past 2 months has been my only real, live fire practice.

I need to slow down since I am a beginner, but knowing that and doing that are 2 different things.

I need to get more dry fire and muscle memory developed at home while watching TV.

I am considering swapping out the rear sights. I have the Glock 3 dot night sights, and thinking about swapping out the rear sights so I just have the front dot. I have trouble with the 3 dots. Figure for $6 I can swap out the rears and always put them back in if I want to.

[teresap989]

When I switched from a 226 to a G17 I got an hour of instruction to get going since I'd never owned a Glock before. The instructor told me almost first thing about low and left on Glocks. His recommendation was make sure you don't have too much finger in the trigger housing. I backed out my tigger finger so I was pressing the trigger with just the pad of my finger and that fixed the problem for me.

Jeff

I also think so.thanks

Thanks you for the post.

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[dagger10k]

Is there any system to report spam on this forum?

[carter300]

Is there any system to report spam on this forum?

Are you talking about the Storm Troopers that have seemed to invade this page??

[famous187]

Thank you all for the replies. My buddy and I went to the range again today and I tried the tips here and from other sources I've been reading from. I can get a consistent 3-4" group at 7yd, which is an improvement over the last range day, even though that accuracy is nothing to get excited about. At ranges 10-20yd the groups start getting MUCH bigger. Lots of low and to the left still. My buddy shot my gun (Glock 19) and had much tighter groups although his groups were all to the left also which makes me think I need to move my rear sight a little. Its funny because watching him , his trigger finger, stance, and grip are ALL wrong according to everything I've read and seen haha. I think investing in a good handgun course will be my next action. Can anyone recommend a good beginners course that covers accuracy in detail, not just basic handling and safety? I live in the Southern Indiana area.

Thanks

[dagger10k]

I was actually talking about the post right above me. I could be wrong, but it looks like a spambot.

Is there any system to report spam on this forum?

Are you talking about the Storm Troopers that have seemed to invade this page??

Edited October 21, 2010 by dagger10k

[Flexmoney]

Do a search for "low and left". On here and on GlockTalk.