Stage Design & Non-shooting Physical Challenges

[rhino]

I was poking through the IDPA rule book online a few minutes ago and I found this gem under the heading "IDPA Course Design Rules & Rationale:

Rules for Course Design: (ALL sanctioned matches must follow these requirements)":

Course designers MUST refrain from designing courses of fire that will substantially disadvantage senior and mobility-challenged shooters.

Now, I notice the use of the word "must" above. It's not "should" or some other suggestion, but a "must" and it is in capital letters in the original text.

So ... how does that square away with some course designs? For instance, what does this rule say about courses that begin prone and require getting up and moving, or courses that require kneeling at several different places with movement after or in between?

I understand that mobility and different shooting positions are essential elements of any set of defensive shooting skills, but IDPA is a game (or sport if you prefer) with rules intended to level the playing field as much as possible.

Discuss!

[Bill Nesbitt]

It also says "substantially disadvantage". I take that to mean that some movement should be included such as kneeling, prone etc. It should not include things like walls to be scaled and other very difficult physical movement. Real life self defense encounters will include some movement.

Bill Nesbitt

[scandog]

Don't you have to submit your stages for sanctioned matches to the AC for approval?

If that is the case, they should be watching to make sure this doesn't become an issue.

[Mark Perez]

We have one shooter who is wheelchair bound. He asks for no quarter in stage design considerations , even when offered the opportunity to modify a particular position or requirement to accomodate , he will decline.

Most of my stage designs had a greater "degree of difficulty" than common stages and this shooter performs the task with a grin on his face and determination in his heart.

An example was a stage that required the competitor to 'bail-out' of a vehicle prop(passenger side) before a closing target made contact with the driver side.Failure to clear the cabin in time would incur a PE. Our guy almost made it.

He is also one of the most accurate guys on the block.

After watching him shoot , players with lesser ailments hold any complaints.

At least to my ear.

mark.

[Mayonaise]

As an MD I had several older shooters and one with a prosthetic leg. They never complained about my COF's which I try to make a realistic as the indoor range allowed. A lot of my COF's require you to take a knee. I just designed them so if you had too it was where the COF ended or I would break it up in seperate strings so it didn't handicap those shooters.

There was a stage in the nationals this year that started prone. You had to back out of the inverted vehicle and continue on. It was broken down as two strings. I'm sure someone could complain or may have. I don't know. You just can't please everyone and still make it challenging and fun.

[tightloop]

I am pleased that both Mark and Mayo have shooters who compete with them that ask no quarter or compromise on stage design.

Problem being that prior posts from respondees to questions like this have in essence said, "Tough Beans. If the shooter can't perform the prescribed task, they can leave."

What the Big Blue Guy has touched on is the statement in the LGB that states that the course MUST accomodate Seniors, and the inference is there to say it should be within their physical ability. Again like Bill Nesbitt, I think some movement should always be part of most stages, but getting down behind low cover and carrying a dummy to start the stage is over the top, for example.

Most of the guys who set up and run matches are the 30+ yr old guys who don't have bad knees, bad back, etc that the over 55 crown has and should read the passage Rhino found and take it to heart. It never hurts to be reminded of what the Guide Lines are. So when a guy with a bad back who can't really get down below a simulated automobile, asks for what his options are, don't get on him like a bad dream and tell him to leave. find a way for them to compete so they feel like part of the match, and not the exception.

[Bill Nesbitt]

We have one local shooter who is overweight. He asks for a 3 second procedural penalty before he shoots a stage where he can't do what is required. For instance, he can kneel but then can't get back up without assistance. All the local clubs accommodate shooters like this.

Bill Nesbitt

[ron durham]

Hi Shooters:

This subject is near and dear to my heart. I think I can give you a good response given my background. Was 85% paralzed from head to toe in 1996, almost completely recovered and am 63 years old at this time (well in 6 days). Let me go back to when my shooting mentor got IDPA going in our area. His first rule was do not set people up to fail. I have never forgot that. For a long time, I had trouble with some of the IDPA rules but within the last year or so have accepted it for what it is and find it a lot more enjoyable. As the rule book states, over and over and over, the idea of IDPA is fairness or as close to it as you can get. I am not going into all the rules because you all know them......you can find them in PURPOSE AND PRINCIPLES on Page 40, third paragraph, Page 18 Course designers MUST refrain..........and so on. As you will note, there is no prone shooting, shooting from kneeling, getting up and running to the next position, or anyother strenuous stuff in the classifier. The board wisely states that vickers count scoring gets lopsided if you allow the course design to become a footrace and they are right, I have seen it happen.

Okay, I understand that I can't be as quick on my feet as the guy half my age, I understand he probably has better vision than me, his reflexes are better and there is no way that we can compensate for our shortcomings but we can thru good course design and a little common sense bring that 30 year old and myself closer together.....just by a few little changes in course design. First of all as Mayo said, if you gotta do a prone scenario, either go off the clock during movement or do the whole scenario from the one prone position. We have done it in the past and it has worked just fine. Don't start a guy out in the open on all fours, if he has got weak legs and needs both hands to push off the ground, well I think you get the point. If you just have to go to a kneeling position, be sure that you have a solid platform so at least a guy can use his elbows to help get himself up. The best solution that we have come up with is put all the physical stuff at the end of the scenario. And you know what? It hasn't hurt the realisum at all. Again, it is about shooting, skills, and not athletic skills. I will defend that premise to the bitter end.

You know Mark, I applaud your shooter that is in the wheelchair but I don't think he really expects any special breaks as I was in the same position a few years back but that is not what we are talking about and I don't think that gives anybody the green light to make the scenarios any tougher than they need to be. Look around, there is a whole bunch of older shooters and we want a fair shot to show our shooting ability, not how strong we are. Well, hope I didn't offend anybody and I know it is a long post. I am the first to admit that my communication skills are not the best.

Ron Durham

[Gun Geek]

Ron:

Very well written and well said, nothing wrong with your communication skills.

We shoot at an indoor range and our MD does a great job of keeping an over abundance of physical stuff out of it.

My observation is that the seniors (who are always whining about having a senior classification) shoot the pants off of the younger guys. The seniors don't rely on physical ability, but rather good basic gun handling skills. They usually shoot and move a little slower, but they get their hits, and they don't move more than necessary.

[BillD]

We run COF's that I guess you would call somewhat physical. We have a few that start prone (like you are startled in your sleep) and a lot that require taking a knee behind a simulated car. We don't have any sprinting and all the moves in the COF's are usually less than 15 ft between cover. I would say that at least half of the 50 shooters we get are over 40 with quit a few of them over 50. I set up the COF's and I am 50 years old and let's say my speed demon days are behind me. We have no problem at all with someone taking a penalty and not kneeling or taking all the time they need to get up from prone or prepositioning a range box to use to help them up. We have a guy who shoots from a wheelchair and we help in nay way we can.

All that being said, movement and using cover is part of this game. I don't want to get to a place where we stand still or move 5 ft in a COF. I will never preclude people from shooting that can safely hold a gun but in my opinion, you have to be able to move and get up unassisted from kneeling to be able to compete at higher levels.

How does the quote from the LGB in the original post square with the COF's run at the nationals and ones approved for other sanctioned matches? The inability to kneel, stand, move, kneel again and so on counts against one big time. We don't have 50 yd sprints but we do require movement in almost all COF's. There are games out there that don't require any movement. I don't believe IDPA was intended to be one of them. If you require any movement, even without kneeling or prone, handicapped individuals will be at a significant disadvantage.

Edited February 12, 2004 by BillD

[Mark Perez]

BillD says;

How does the quote from the LGB in the original post square with the COF's run at the nationals and ones approved for other sanctioned matches? The inability to kneel, stand, move, kneel again and so on counts against one big time. We don't have 50 yd sprints but we do require movement in almost all COF's. There are games out there that don't require any movement. I don't believe IDPA was intended to be one of them. If you require any movement, even without kneeling or prone, handicapped individuals will be at a significant disadvantage.

and from the LGB;

Course Design Rationale:

The solution to using a low cover position is to require the shooter to have at least one knee on the ground when actually firing. It may be noted that older shooters will be slower on this than younger ones, or a person with a prior knee injury will not be able to do this technique as well as someone with good knees. This is a fact of life, and will be exactly the same in a real life self-defense scenario.

So even IDPA recognizes "fact of life".

There is generally less movement in a typical IDPA stage vs. an IPSC stage ..

Does USPSA make any similar demands from their stage designers?

[ron durham]

So Mark, that's it huh? Well I didn't expect to change some people's mind. I think I laid out a simple solution or at least simple in my neck of the woods. You can't expect everybody to see it my way. No problem, I will continue shooting with people that understand evenly laid out courses of fire that make it as fair as possible for all shooters.

Ron Durham

[rhino]

This has been a very good discussion so far, I think.

And when BillD mentions using a range box to help get up, I'm the guy who does that! I'm like some of the others ... I've chosen to go ahead an do whatever the course of fire requires and just take as much time as it takes me to do it. I complain about it (sometimes a lot!), but usually not at the matches and I still do whatever it is (if I can).

Some of the SOs and other shooters at BillD's club (Wildcat Valley in Indiana) have been very accomodating to me as well as the other shooters with problems. I've been told more than once that I didn't have to do something, and I can vividly remember each and every time some of them physically helped me up when I needed it! The last time was a couple of them pushing on the back of the "Black Hole Easy Chair of Doom" when I got stuck. A couple of times they've had to fish me out of the gravel.

The idea of taking a penalty in lieu of a course requirement makes a lot of sense in the competition part of things, and I've done it in the past in USPSA/IPSC matches. I'm not sure if I ever will in IDPA, but it's certainly an option. Taking a three second penalty vs. taking 30 seconds (or more) to get up from prone seems like a no-brainer! And now that I think about it, it makes sense to take the penalty to avoid inconveniencing the people who might have to help me if I have a problem. I'll have to think that over carefully the next time my pride and common sense have a conflict.

In any case, I'm luckier than a lot of others with mobility problems because I am improving over time and with physical therapy and exercise. When I first started shooting at BillD's club, I had to use a cane. I held back from coming to the matches when I was still using a walker because I didn't think it was safe and I knew I couldn't last anyway. And of course, when I couldn't even stand or sit, it wasn't an issue. Hopefully I won't need my box to help me up this year, and I really hope they don't have to pick me up again!

But ... my specifics aside, I was struck by the specific wording of the rules and how they possibly conflicted with at least one stage in the last IDPA nationals. I saw the stage where the shooter started prone in/under the car, then had to back out. I also noted that backing out and getting up were "off the clock," and I think that was a really good idea and obviously the only way to do it within the specifics of the rules.

Given that example, it seems like the argument for putting such non-shooting activities "off the clock" is far stronger than the argument for putting administrative (i.e. "tactical") reloads off of the clock. Yet I don't see much discussion of the former.

[Mark Perez]

Rhino

The example I gave about the "bail out" stage was done off the timer.

The only time pressure they were under was the closing speed of the mover.

This was done as a safety precaution,I didn't want anyone drawing a hg as they exited (up range ) the 'car'.

until that day,

MP