reshoot or not?

[CPUFIXER]

Recently we had a stage where a competitor shot at a popper, hit it, it did not fall. The competitor took another shot, however this time he missed it. The popper in question does finally fall. After all is scored, the popper is inspected and found that the spring for the popper had fallen out prior to setting it before the start of the stage.

Now, the popper did fall after he shot it, it was just VEEERRRY slow to fall. Does he get an automatic reshoot due to range malfunction?

[sperman]

For those of you not familiar with the equipment at the range in question, it is a spring loaded forward falling popper. Without the spring, I'm suprised it fell at all.

My original response was going to be no re-shoot, once the popper falls, the shooter owns it. However, after a little further inspection of the rulebook, I would have no problem offering the shooter a re-shoot and citing 4.6.1:

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. ...

[CPUFIXER]

hmmm...I might owe Hollar a beer.

[sperman]

You didn't tell me it was Hollar.

I'll be at Ga State next month, but remind me in October to look over the poppers. There are a couple that need a little TLC.

[George Jones]

Question....

How do you know the spring fell out prior to setting it?

If it was known, would it not have been fixed at that time.

If it was not discovered until after the shooter shot the stage, what evidence was used to come to this conclusion?

[Gary Johnson]

A slow Popper will only get you a reshoot if it is an activator and the competitor has to wait for it longer than everyone else did.

[wide45]

Recently we had a stage where a competitor shot at a popper, hit it, it did not fall. The competitor took another shot, however this time he missed it. The popper in question does finally fall. After all is scored, the popper is inspected and found that the spring for the popper had fallen out prior to setting it before the start of the stage.

Now, the popper did fall after he shot it, it was just VEEERRRY slow to fall. Does he get an automatic reshoot due to range malfunction?

Did it fall slowly from the shot, or did it fall from wind, or something else not caused by the competitor?

[wide45]

A slow Popper will only get you a reshoot if it is an activator and the competitor has to wait for it longer than everyone else did.

Nope, no special rules for an activator. Same rules apply to every popper.

Edited August 17, 2010 by wide45

[sperman]

Question....

How do you know the spring fell out prior to setting it?

If it was known, would it not have been fixed at that time.

If it was not discovered until after the shooter shot the stage, what evidence was used to come to this conclusion?

I wasn't at the match on Saturday, but I'll explain my logic behind offering a re-shoot.

Being spring loaded poppers, their behavior is very predictable. You either hit them hard enough for the latch to release, or you don't. The speed of the popper falling is more or less determined by the spring, not by the strength of the hit. Having seen these poppers shot at hundreds if not thousands of times, I know what they look like when they release.

If I'm holding the clipboard, and the popper acts in a way that I've never seen it behave before, I'm going to be suspicious. If I go downrange and see that the spring is out of place, I feel that is sufficient evidence that the spring was out of place before the shooters run. Should it have been fixed prior to the shooters run? Yes. Is it unreasonable to believe that the popper was set wrong? Not at all. If you are used to gravity operated poppers, it would seem normal to just push the popper back up into position. I'm guessing the majority of shooters have never seen poppers like this. I've only seen them at my local club.

If I'm at an unfamiliar range, I don't have the advantage of this knowledge. I'm still going to call for the CRO or RM and present the evidence to them and get their opinion.

[George Jones]

I wasn't at the match on Saturday, but I'll explain my logic behind offering a re-shoot.

Being spring loaded poppers, their behavior is very predictable. You either hit them hard enough for the latch to release, or you don't. The speed of the popper falling is more or less determined by the spring, not by the strength of the hit. Having seen these poppers shot at hundreds if not thousands of times, I know what they look like when they release.

If I'm holding the clipboard, and the popper acts in a way that I've never seen it behave before, I'm going to be suspicious. If I go downrange and see that the spring is out of place, I feel that is sufficient evidence that the spring was out of place before the shooters run. Should it have been fixed prior to the shooters run? Yes. Is it unreasonable to believe that the popper was set wrong? Not at all. If you are used to gravity operated poppers, it would seem normal to just push the popper back up into position. I'm guessing the majority of shooters have never seen poppers like this. I've only seen them at my local club.

If I'm at an unfamiliar range, I don't have the advantage of this knowledge. I'm still going to call for the CRO or RM and present the evidence to them and get their opinion.

Understood, but the rules on popper challenges (C1 #6) are quite clear. If it fell, no challenge is available.

Nowhere does it say that your perception of "normal" operation comes into play... unless it didn't fall. It may feel good to make such a call but it is not supported by the rules if the popper is down.

Inconsistent operation (from one popper to another) is not all that unusual with forward falling poppers due to the different ground levels and spring tensions. One of the reasons I'm not a big fan of FF poppers, although I realize that there are legitimate reasons to use them.

[sperman]

I still say 4.6.1 trumps the fact that the popper fell, and I'm ordering a re-shoot for REF.

[George Jones]

I still say 4.6.1 trumps the fact that the popper fell, and I'm ordering a re-shoot for REF.

Not supported by rule.

4.6.1 mentions a number of potential culprits, but none of them match this scenario.

A general rule never trumps a specific rule. App C1 is quite specific.

[CPUFIXER]

Well I feel a little better now. This is the stuff I need to get straight before I RO my first big match (NC Sectionals in Oct.).

[vluc]

A slow Popper will only get you a reshoot if it is an activator and the competitor has to wait for it longer than everyone else did.

????

[sperman]

My thought is the shooter doesn't have to challenge the calibration. As the RO it was clear to me that a problem with the equipment didn't offer the shooter an equal challenge to the rest of the competitors. REF.

I thought for sure some of the other DRLs would chime in on this conversation. I guess George's answer is the definitive one. (It's not the first time I've been wrong. It probably won't be the last, either.)

No beer for Michael.