DAO, shooting low for me

[Gary H.]

I have an M & P 9 Pro that is shooting low. Pretty sure it's mechanical and the wife is doing the same thing apparently with it. I don't have a problem with my single action pistols or long guns but this is really my first DAO gun and just can't get it figured out. I'm pretty certain its me because another shooter that is more experienced with the DAO trigger pull don't have as low of POI as my wife and I do with this gun. The trigger is decent but not what I would call match grade.

I know this can be caused by anticipation of the recoil during trigger pull but i've ruled that out with others watching me shoot. I'm going to give the gun another workout tomorrow night and was wondering if any of you could recommend anything.

Thanks,

Gary

[G-ManBart]

You've got 21 22 replies on the same topic in this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108936&view=findpost&p=1237894

Edited July 27, 2010 by G-ManBart

[CocoBolo]

I have an M & P 9 Pro that is shooting low. Pretty sure it's mechanical and the wife is doing the same thing apparently with it. I don't have a problem with my single action pistols or long guns but this is really my first DAO gun and just can't get it figured out. I'm pretty certain its me because another shooter that is more experienced with the DAO trigger pull don't have as low of POI as my wife and I do with this gun. The trigger is decent but not what I would call match grade.

I know this can be caused by anticipation of the recoil during trigger pull but i've ruled that out with others watching me shoot. I'm going to give the gun another workout tomorrow night and was wondering if any of you could recommend anything.

Thanks,

Gary

First step would be to verify that the sights are on for you by shooting it from a rest where you can't pull the front of the gun down. If POI does not match POA then it needs the sights adjusted. Most of the time if it is just bad trigger control aka yanking it then it would be low and left for a right hander. Are the shots grouping?

[Gary H.]

You've got 21 22 replies on the same topic in this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108936&view=findpost&p=1237894

I don't believe it is the same topic. I thought it was the gun on the other thread and thanks to them, I now believe it's me. Since it wasn't the guns fault, I thought it would best to move this part of the question out of that forum and into this one since I'm new to DAO pistol shooting,. Forgive me if I am incorrect.

[G-ManBart]

You've got 21 22 replies on the same topic in this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108936&view=findpost&p=1237894

I don't believe it is the same topic. I thought it was the gun on the other thread and thanks to them, I now believe it's me. Since it wasn't the guns fault, I thought it would best to move this part of the question out of that forum and into this one since I'm new to DAO pistol shooting,. Forgive me if I am incorrect.

If it's you, it's almost always caused by taking the slack out of the trigger, stopping, and then accelerating the trigger when the sights are lined up. That acceleration causes the front sight to dip. The key is to slow, but not stop the trigger press, after you've taken up the slack and are feeling the actual resistance on the sear. R,

[bdpaz]

I'm new to DAO pistol shooting,.

Put that out of your mind and just work on figuring out what you need to need to do to make your gun work - i.e. breaking the shot without disturbing the sight picture. Possible reasons: you are using a light grip that works with your light trigger single action guns but the M&P shifts as you press the heavier trigger (so clamp down harder with the support hand), the M&P doesn't have a distinct stop after taking up the pre travel/slack (pull through without feeling for the stop or have a trigger job done), or the trigger doesn't always break cleanly after taking up the slack so you may be jerking the gun down as you abruptly apply more pressure than you thought you'd need (this was the case with my M&P's factory trigger).

[Gary H.]

I'm new to DAO pistol shooting,.

Put that out of your mind and just work on figuring out what you need to need to do to make your gun work - i.e. breaking the shot without disturbing the sight picture. Possible reasons: you are using a light grip that works with your light trigger single action guns but the M&P shifts as you press the heavier trigger (so clamp down harder with the support hand), the M&P doesn't have a distinct stop after taking up the pre travel/slack (pull through without feeling for the stop or have a trigger job done), or the trigger doesn't always break cleanly after taking up the slack so you may be jerking the gun down as you abruptly apply more pressure than you thought you'd need (this was the case with my M&P's factory trigger).

These type answers could very well be what my problem is. In dryfire, the sights don't appear to be dipping, but they could when actually firing it. I'll pay more attention. During dryfiring, I'm not pressed for time like I would be shooting plates for speed. I'm going to shoot it off the rest tonight extensively and see how things work out. I'll also try to get a couple guys to shoot it and see how they do. But I believe the last couple posts could very well be whats going on. In thinking about it, it does seem to shoot lower when I am shooting steel plates rather than taking my time and trying to be accurate.

[bdpaz]

These type answers could very well be what my problem is. In dryfire, the sights don't appear to be dipping, but they could when actually firing it. I'll pay more attention. During dryfiring, I'm not pressed for time like I would be shooting plates for speed. I'm going to shoot it off the rest tonight extensively and see how things work out. I'll also try to get a couple guys to shoot it and see how they do. But I believe the last couple posts could very well be whats going on. In thinking about it, it does seem to shoot lower when I am shooting steel plates rather than taking my time and trying to be accurate.

Also be sure you continue to aim while pressing the trigger to fire the shot. You probably do this when dry firing but when really shooting you may be doing it sequentially - aiming first, then transitioning to pressing the trigger, and if so you won't be aware of where the sights were when the shot broke.

[G-ManBart]

These type answers could very well be what my problem is. In dryfire, the sights don't appear to be dipping, but they could when actually firing it. I'll pay more attention. During dryfiring, I'm not pressed for time like I would be shooting plates for speed. I'm going to shoot it off the rest tonight extensively and see how things work out. I'll also try to get a couple guys to shoot it and see how they do. But I believe the last couple posts could very well be whats going on. In thinking about it, it does seem to shoot lower when I am shooting steel plates rather than taking my time and trying to be accurate.

Also be sure you continue to aim while pressing the trigger to fire the shot. You probably do this when dry firing but when really shooting you may be doing it sequentially - aiming first, then transitioning to pressing the trigger, and if so you won't be aware of where the sights were when the shot broke.

Yes, we want to watch the sights lift, but the thing you're telling him to do is exactly the thing that causes people to have low and low left hits. They try to keep the sights "just right" while they're pressing the trigger, until they make the gun go off when the sights are where they want them, by accelerating through the press. We hear people say "you jerked the trigger"...no, they accelerated through it to make the gun go off "now" because the sight picture looked perfect.

Press the trigger properly, continuously, and if that's done properly, the hits will be where they need to be....which is why the target can be blurry and you can hit the center time after time after time....but only if the trigger is pressed properly.

Calling your shot isn't about continuously aiming, it's about simply observing what happens when the gun goes off. The two are not the same.

[bdpaz]

...no, they accelerated through it to make the gun go off "now" because the sight picture looked perfect.

That is doing one thing (aiming) then switching to another (firing). What I mean is that you can be aiming as you fire. It is more applicable on difficult shots (or with a revolver!) but if your sights move while prepping or pressing the trigger, don't speed up or slow down but move them back as you are pressing the trigger.

[Gary H.]

Did much better with the gun tonight. Ended up that the gun is shooting a little low as 2 other shooters had the same results. The just weren't as bad as mine. My trigger work combined with an already low shooter made it much worse than it should have been. I think I can get the hang of this gun after this evening anyhow. I'll be sending it back to S & W on their dime to tend to the issue.

Thanks everybody!

[G-ManBart]

...no, they accelerated through it to make the gun go off "now" because the sight picture looked perfect.

That is doing one thing (aiming) then switching to another (firing). What I mean is that you can be aiming as you fire. It is more applicable on difficult shots (or with a revolver!) but if your sights move while prepping or pressing the trigger, don't speed up or slow down but move them back as you are pressing the trigger.

Yeah, that's one classic theory. It's also wrong.

The harder the shot, the more wrong that theory is. Using your revolver example is perfect. To hit something with a revolver, double action, requires a perfect trigger press, not perfect sight alignment or sight picture; close is more than good enough for the last two.

I've detailed the how and why in other threads, and it's based on actual facts (meaning ultra high speed video, trigger pressure and time/distance movement sensors attached from gun to a computer graph, among other things), not theories or concepts.

The sights are never going to be motionless without a rest and the visual wobble zone people see looks like it's moving the sights off the target, but they're not. A laser mounted to the gun points this out nicely. The sights move (visually) all over the place, but the laser rarely will stray outside of the typical bullseye X ring. Doing anything other than a perfect trigger press will only make things worse, and if the sights aren't settled enough for the particular shot, the only useful correction is to slow the press and let the sights settle more. Unfortunately, I can show someone this a heck of a lot easier than I can describe it, but nobody has been able to refute it last I knew (including the absolute best shooters in the world who've tried it).

I can't begin to describe how many people I've seen shoot Glocks, M&Ps etc and have the problem with low hits. It's generally not that they're not aligning the sights properly, or that they're not holding that alignment long enough, it's that they stop the trigger press somewhere in the middle, wait for a perfect sight picture and then try to snatch the shot. That forces them to accelerate the trigger press (no other way to make it go off NOW), and it pushes the muzzle down, but it happens so late that they don't see it in recoil/noise. I often just slap the .22 conversion on and hand it to them...they accelerate the trigger and push the first shot way low, look at me and say "oh, THAT'S what I'm doing".....after that they know what it looks and feels like and it becomes self-correcting.

[bdpaz]

Well, I may have the reasoning all wrong but changing from "aim then press the trigger, then aim then press the trigger, ..." to attempting to aim continuously and shoot when the sights are where I want them has worked well for me .

[Doug S]

Here are a couple guides that were given to me when I became a FI. I know these are basic, but that is a normal problem. We forget the basics!

[Gary H.]

Thanks Doug. Those will be helpful. Not only helpful for those who forget the basics but it's good for those of us that haven't properly learned them yet also!

[FN fan]

I would say adjusting the sights would be the best way to go.