Limited Vickers Procedural

[jagdawg]

Rule question: Non-sanctioned match. 4 paper. COF as Limited Vickers, Engage 4 targets in tactical sequence, strong hand only, then tac-load or reload w/retention, then engage each with one shot to the head, weak hand only.

Shooter shot the complete COF, but failed to shoot twice at the fourth target during the strong hand tact sequence. Of course, received 5 points down for no hit on target, but also a procedural for not shooting the correct number of shots or not engaging that target with the correct amount of shots.

My thought is that limited vickers is designed to "limit" the amount of shots, but I didn't think that if you came up a shot short - even after engaging that target with at least one shot - it would result in a procedural.

Opinions? Thanks.

[spanky]

I know the sports are dissimilar as far as rules go but there was a thread (or more) on this recently in the USPSA section and it was the general consensus that it should not be a penalty for firing less than the called for number of shots.

[Steve Koski]

Performance

PP 1. Procedural Error (PE):

A. Adds three (3) seconds per infraction.

B. Is assessed when the competitor does not follow the

procedures set forth in the CoF description or when a

competitor breaks a competition rule. [...]

m. The competitor does not follow CoF rules as required.

I believe it's a PE.

[jagdawg]

I see both points. Here's some more thoughts...

If it were a Vickers count stage - if that target was only shot at once in the tactical sequence - I don't think it even becomes an issue. You are already being penalized by the -5 you'll take for not throwing a round at it. In other words, throw as many as you want at it to better your score - but throw less and you're already hurting yourself.

I've seen this happen a bunch while folks are shooting a tactical sequence in regular Vickers count and have never seen a PE on it before. I've only seen the points down scoring for the shot not taken in the sequence. I've seen folks completely fail to engage a target in a Vickers COF, and they were given a -5, -5, and FTN, but not all of these plus a PE.

So now on to the definition of Limited Vickers - "Same as Vickers Count described above EXCEPT the number of shots you can fire on any string is limited to the number specified in the course description. Any extra shots will incur a procedural penalty of three (3) seconds per string and one of your highest scoring hits will be deducted from your point score for each extra shot fired...."

It would seem the intent of a Limited Vickers count stage is to "limit" shots and so "extra" shots are penalized. There isn't anything specific that I can find in the rulebook to show there is a penalty for taking "less" shots unless it is done trying to circumvent the COF, and in that case, it would be a FTDR.

If less shots on Limited Vickers are to be penalized, then perhaps the name should be changed to "Exact" Vickers count?

[Steve Koski]

There isn't anything specific that I can find in the rulebook to show there is a penalty for taking "less" shots

Except for the rule I just quoted, which says you get a PE for not following the COF.

Did he follow the COF rules as required?

No.

Does the rulebook call for a PE for failing to follow the COF rules as required?

Yes.

Should we reconsider, or look for double/triple rule coverage?

I don't think it's necessary.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Steve Koski

[Steve Koski]

I once got a procedural for not putting a weighted bag in the right location. I could have argued that the location I put it was just as good, in fact harder than putting it in the right location.

I still didn't follow the written COF and got the finger.

[jagdawg]

I'm a fairly new SO - I wouldn't have called it had it not been pointed out by another shooter who regularly shoots IPSC. The other SO with me - who's been doing it longer than me, also noticed the 1 less shot, but wasn't going to call anything other than the -5 until it was brought up for discussion. So, not arguing..just trying to learn.

So, whether it's limited or not, if I see someone fail to engage a target on a COF, or only throw one round at it instead of two - it should be the points down, a potential FTN (on the failure to engage) and a PE. Right?

Edited May 24, 2010 by jagdawg

[Steve Koski]

Correct.

The only exception is if they're already getting a procedural for the same error. You don't penalize someone twice for the same mistake. (I'm trying to cook up a good example of this, but one isn't coming readily to mind.)

I didn't use to call PE's this way either, until a bunch of shooters who regularly attended nationals educated me. They said that without fail folks were dinged for the PE when the COF was not followed, even if they were getting multiple FTN's and points down on top of it.

[Nuke8401]

If shooter "A"'s only mistake on a stage was not following the COF; they for sure get a PE.

If Shooter "B" does not follow the COF but doesn't get a PE for it because they already have XX number of points down or XX penalties?

Because a shooter's goose is already cooked by getting -5 points down for the "miss" and possibly a FTN; neither justifies not giving them a PE for not following the COF. This would be a disservice to shooter "A" whose only mistake was the PE. I would be livid as shooter "A".

I understand the question is more about the limited Vickers aspect but in any case the COF was not followed and there is no "get out of a PE free" card.

David E.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Nuke8401

[Jane]

You don't penalize someone twice for the same mistake. (I'm trying to cook up a good example of this, but one isn't coming readily to mind.)

[drift from original question]

You're required to shoot 3 targets whilst moving but are stationary. 1pe

You're called twice for cover. 1pe

A stage requires taking a knee, moving, taking a knee again. You have a knee injury and don't kneel. 1pe.

A stage has two sets of targets that each require tac sequence and you brain fade and shoot them two and two both times. 1pe.

A stage has two targets that need to be engaged weak hand-only and you don't. 1pe.

You drop two mags from your mag carrier. 1pe.

[/drift from original question]

[jagdawg]

Can anyone think of any Limited Vickers COF that the shooter wouldn't receive a PE for shooting less shots?

I can't.

[wilinaz]

NO, If you engage the targets with less than the specified # of rounds it is a PE. There are time when the shot counter on the timer can be an SO's best friend for proving one way or the other. The required # of rounds should be noted on the COF.