155gr or 165gr for .40 Major?

[BoldasLions]

Before anyone jumps on me about the search button, I've done a lot of searching.

I just bought a Brazo's tuned 5" STI TROJAN w/ Trip Mags and plan on shooting Major in single stack division. I like the idea of the lighter and faster bullet, I'm not as into the 180gr, but am willing to listen to 180gr advocates. The powder I'm using is Hodgdon Tightgroup. Are there any recommendations of loads for 155 or 165? If so what springs do you recommend?

Thank You!

[smokshwn]

Since you brought it up, your search foo is weak.....there is a whole forum discussing nothing but .40 caliber loads.

Have fun!

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=73

and weird another forum of nothing but springs

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=28

Edited May 10, 2010 by smokshwn

[raz-0]

I love 165gr .40 for production. At minor PF, faster and flatter shooitng makes a difference at longer targets.  I've been trying to do major with 170gr moly coated. In my experiments I have been chronoing 165gr jacketed, 180gr plated, 185gr moly coat, and 170 gr moly coat. 

Here's my take on things:

-170gr moly and 185gr moly loaded to withing 2pf of each other felt VERY similar. However, both of those loads were about 160pf. 

- Pushing 165 past 1000fps with titegroup feels like you are hitting something with a hammer when you shoot it.  I can see it causing RSI issues IMO.  With 180, you don't have to go as fast, and you can stay below that threshold where the recoil gets harsh and vibrates. you don't start to get that harsh feeling with 180 until 175pf or so. 

- Universal clays will safely make major in .40 with light bullets, titegroup and zip are really pushing it.

- there is no answer on springs. It all depends on how you shoot, what you shoot, what you like,  and the mass of your slide. 

- I find the accuracy sweet spot with most bullets and my three .40 pistols to be over 800fps and under 1000fps. 

If I was committed to titegroup, and shooting major, I'd shoot 180s. 

If I was committed to titegroup and shooting minor, I'd shoot 165s. 

If I was committed to 165s and wanted to make major, I'd use something other than titegroup, and stick to jacketed ammo. 

[G-ManBart]

I like the idea of the lighter and faster bullet, I'm not as into the 180gr, but am willing to listen to 180gr advocates.

Any particular reason why?

Lighter and faster bullets equals more muzzle flip and more recoil...two things that aren't entirely helpful for what we do. I shoot almost nothing but 180s out of my Trojan and it's far from sluggish, so that shouldn't be a concern. It actually has a nice crips feel (12.5lb ISMI spring, 19lb mainspring). The 165s can be a bit snappy in comparison....more than necessary really. R,

[Merlin Orr]

IMO - 180s in a 5". 165s in a 6" and 155s for minor .40 with either the 5 or the 6 inch gun. A 155 at major is "a bit Snappy"...

[BoldasLions]

I like the idea of the lighter and faster bullet, I'm not as into the 180gr, but am willing to listen to 180gr advocates.

Any particular reason why?

Lighter and faster bullets equals more muzzle flip and more recoil...two things that aren't entirely helpful for what we do. I shoot almost nothing but 180s out of my Trojan and it's far from sluggish, so that shouldn't be a concern. It actually has a nice crips feel (12.5lb ISMI spring, 19lb mainspring). The 165s can be a bit snappy in comparison....more than necessary really. R,

The reason why as it seemed like J Michael Plaxco's book Shooting from Within recommended the lighter and faster loads, without distinction from compensated to uncompensated, but I could be wrong. Thanks for all the help, you guys are really putting out some good info! Keep it coming!

[G-ManBart]

The reason why as it seemed like J Michael Plaxco's book Shooting from Within recommended the lighter and faster loads, without distinction from compensated to uncompensated, but I could be wrong. Thanks for all the help, you guys are really putting out some good info! Keep it coming!

Gotcha.

I think you'd find that some really high percentage (I'd bet 85-90%) of the top GMs are shooting a 180gr bullet in their .40 Major ammo.

In a compensated gun, yes, lighter and faster (with a larger charge of slow powder) is often a good thing since it works the comp more. In a non-compensated guns you generally want heavyish bullets with fast powders (and small charges) because the charge weight going out the tube pushes back on your hand harder. R,

[raz-0]

Gotcha.

I think you'd find that some really high percentage (I'd bet 85-90%) of the top GMs are shooting a 180gr bullet in their .40 Major ammo.

In a compensated gun, yes, lighter and faster (with a larger charge of slow powder) is often a good thing since it works the comp more. In a non-compensated guns you generally want heavyish bullets with fast powders (and small charges) because the charge weight going out the tube pushes back on your hand harder. R,

Ok, I REALLY have to question the logic of this. To illustrate, I'm using production loads, because that was what I happened to be shooting at the time of trying it out.

I had been shooting a 180gr plated bullet with 3.5gr of titegroup for about a 135pf. I switched to 165gr FMJ with 4.1gr of titegroup for about a 135pf. Shooting them, the recoil was pretty similar, but I wasn't waiting on a sight picture with the 165 load where the 180 load was pretty sluggish on cycling.

The 180 load had 183.5gr of stuff coming out the end, the 165 load had 169.1gr of stuff coming out the end. The only real difference was how fast the slide cycled. the 165 load disrupted the sight picture mroe, but actually got back to a good sight picture faster due to the 180 gr load cycling things slower. I've also recently been experimenting with moly coated lead in 170 and 185. Loaded to the same major PF (give or take a PF or two), they felt VERY similar, and at the same near mjor pf there wasn't much difference in the behavior of the sight picture. I'd have to go look up particulars, but were talking something like 0.6 gr of ZIP with regards to what was jetting out the end of the gun.

In reality, the charge is moving at a greater velocity, but just in bullet weight, you have 180 moving at 750, and 165 moving at 818. Even if you assume the gas from the powder is moving at 5000fps, the charge in the 180 load is 17.5pf, and the charge in the 165 load is 20.5pf. 2.5pf is more than the variation between rounds of a given recipe for most folks.

I think PF for PF, heavier bullets mean more pushy recoil, less flippy recoil, lighter bullets mean less pushy recoil, more flippy recoil. Then you can use springs and firing pin stop profile to change that up.

Am I really that off on what the powder charge is doing? Because my math, and my experience agree with each other with a little wiggle room.

ETA:

One thing that I definitely notice though is that making major with 165 you are going over 100fps, and the noise increases a lot. A low end major round in 180 is about 930fps, and the report isn't as sharp and loud. Both should be subsonic, so I'm guessing it isn't that, but the 165s are definitely barkier for the same PF, and sound can be a big factor in perceived recoil.

Edited May 12, 2010 by raz-0

[G-ManBart]

Gotcha.

I think you'd find that some really high percentage (I'd bet 85-90%) of the top GMs are shooting a 180gr bullet in their .40 Major ammo.

In a compensated gun, yes, lighter and faster (with a larger charge of slow powder) is often a good thing since it works the comp more. In a non-compensated guns you generally want heavyish bullets with fast powders (and small charges) because the charge weight going out the tube pushes back on your hand harder. R,

Ok, I REALLY have to question the logic of this. To illustrate, I'm using production loads, because that was what I happened to be shooting at the time of trying it out.

I had been shooting a 180gr plated bullet with 3.5gr of titegroup for about a 135pf. I switched to 165gr FMJ with 4.1gr of titegroup for about a 135pf. Shooting them, the recoil was pretty similar, but I wasn't waiting on a sight picture with the 165 load where the 180 load was pretty sluggish on cycling. The gun actually cycles in roughly the same amount of time either way...a couple of ten thousandths of a second or so aren't something you're going to notice. The reaction to springs, the amount of flip etc all take time to get used to and any change tricks your perception.

The 180 load had 183.5gr of stuff coming out the end, the 165 load had 169.1gr of stuff coming out the end. The only real difference was how fast the slide cycled. Not really. The slide speed would have been very close to one another with both loads. The velocity of that "stuff" coming out the end changed as well....there is a rocket effect to consider, and velocity is a primary factor. the 165 load disrupted the sight picture mroe, but actually got back to a good sight picture faster due to the 180 gr load cycling things slower. Did you shoot a couple hundred of each...say 500, to give yourself time to adapt to the different load? If not, what you were seeing was the difference between a load your body was familiar with, and one it wasn't. I've also recently been experimenting with moly coated lead in 170 and 185. Loaded to the same major PF (give or take a PF or two), they felt VERY similar, and at the same near mjor pf there wasn't much difference in the behavior of the sight picture. I'd have to go look up particulars, but were talking something like 0.6 gr of ZIP with regards to what was jetting out the end of the gun.

In reality, the charge is moving at a greater velocity, but just in bullet weight, you have 180 moving at 750, and 165 moving at 818. Even if you assume the gas from the powder is moving at 5000fps, the charge in the 180 load is 17.5pf, and the charge in the 165 load is 20.5pf. 2.5pf is more than the variation between rounds of a given recipe for most folks.

I think PF for PF, heavier bullets mean more pushy recoil, less flippy recoil, lighter bullets mean less pushy recoil, more flippy recoil. Then you can use springs and firing pin stop profile to change that up.

Am I really that off on what the powder charge is doing? Because my math, and my experience agree with each other with a little wiggle room.

ETA:

One thing that I definitely notice though is that making major with 165 you are going over 100fps, and the noise increases a lot. A low end major round in 180 is about 930fps, and the report isn't as sharp and loud. Both should be subsonic, so I'm guessing it isn't that, but the 165s are definitely barkier for the same PF, and sound can be a big factor in perceived recoil.

Feel free to question it all you'd like...it's still pretty much the accepted wisdom on how things work. Of course, nobody said it had to work for you

Edited May 12, 2010 by G-ManBart

[martyg00]

I like the idea of the lighter and faster bullet, I'm not as into the 180gr, but am willing to listen to 180gr advocates.

Any particular reason why?

Lighter and faster bullets equals more muzzle flip and more recoil...two things that aren't entirely helpful for what we do. I shoot almost nothing but 180s out of my Trojan and it's far from sluggish, so that shouldn't be a concern. It actually has a nice crips feel (12.5lb ISMI spring, 19lb mainspring). The 165s can be a bit snappy in comparison....more than necessary really. R,

The reason why as it seemed like J Michael Plaxco's book Shooting from Within recommended the lighter and faster loads, without distinction from compensated to uncompensated, but I could be wrong. Thanks for all the help, you guys are really putting out some good info! Keep it coming!

Mike wrote that book I believe around 1990 or 1991 and at that time there was only one division, open, and everybody shot heads up. The lighter faster loads allow the compensator to work more efficiently as there is more gas pressure to work with. I trained with Mike in the late 80's and have that book and his series of tapes. Very good information. Mike was writing about compensated pistols in the book.

I have only shot the open division but if I was going to limited, 180 would be my choice.

Marty

A-7424

Edited May 12, 2010 by martyg00

[BoldasLions]

I like the idea of the lighter and faster bullet, I'm not as into the 180gr, but am willing to listen to 180gr advocates.

Any particular reason why?

Lighter and faster bullets equals more muzzle flip and more recoil...two things that aren't entirely helpful for what we do. I shoot almost nothing but 180s out of my Trojan and it's far from sluggish, so that shouldn't be a concern. It actually has a nice crips feel (12.5lb ISMI spring, 19lb mainspring). The 165s can be a bit snappy in comparison....more than necessary really. R,

The reason why as it seemed like J Michael Plaxco's book Shooting from Within recommended the lighter and faster loads, without distinction from compensated to uncompensated, but I could be wrong. Thanks for all the help, you guys are really putting out some good info! Keep it coming!

Mike wrote that book I believe around 1990 or 1991 and at that time there was only one division, open, and everybody shot heads up. The lighter faster loads allow the compensator to work more efficiently as there is more gas pressure to work with. I trained with Mike in the late 80's and have that book and his series of tapes. Very good information. Mike was writing about compensated pistols in the book.

I have only shot the open division but if I was going to limited, 180 would be my choice.

Marty

A-7424

Hey great information and thank you for setting the context. Shooting from Within is truly a great book!

[CocoBolo]

Shucks when I saw this I thought wrong question. I started with 200gr Zero in 40 with 4.3gr TiteGroup at 1.180. As my perceived skill increased I went with 180's, then progressed to Precision 185 and then to BayouBullet 180. Get the flip and recoil down with Moly or Coated bullets using less powder. Jacketed bullets are easier to load but take more powder so bigger bang more gas and more perceived recoil. The largest bullet I have seen shot in competition with a 40 is 220 and that gun just laid there in the A zone when you shot it.

Examples:

180 Jacketed 5.1gr WST versus Precision Moly 4.7gr (170+pf)

180 Jacketed 5.0gr N320 versus BayouBullet or Precision 4.5gr (@170pf)

I don't use TiteGroup with coated bullets it burns very hot, but works good for jacketed bullets. (not trying to start a fire storm here just expressing my preference, I like my smoke from tobacco).

Somebody said Loud, don't bother me none I shoot open as well, fill up a case with LoudShot some time and try it in a compensated shorty, then shoot your limited gun or SS you won't even hear it.