Zak Smith Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 I am looking for a partner for The International Tactical Riflemans' Championship match in Gillette WY Aug 27-29 2004. This match is shot in two-man teams: one bolt-rifle shooter, and one carbine shooter. I think both shoot pistol also. It involves a "gully" course that is very challenging to physical endurance and shooting skills. I am located in Colorado (Fort Collins) and would prefer a partner from the general area so we can get together periodically to plan and train for it. Slots in the match are apparently limited so I want to sign up ASAP. My mini shooting resume: Started shooting IPSC & 3Gun in 2003. Shot about 10 IPSC matches and came in first or second in L-10 3 or 4 times. My classification is currently "C", but my average is only about 2% away from B. Shot 5 or 6 local 3Gun matches, usually scoring in the middle of the pack. At RM3G-Raton, I came in 35th out of 75 in the Tactical class. Summary: I don't suck, and I'm improving. I'm in decent shape at my ripe old age of 28 and should be able to handle the physical challenges of this match. I am currently set up perfectly to shoot the "carbine" portion, so I'd prefer a partner who can run a bolt rifle out to 900 yards. However, if that's not possible, there's still enough time for me to get a bolt rifle sorted out and have some practice by August. Since the 3Gun community is pretty small and well-connected, I'm hoping that someone here is interested and looking for a partner for this match, or knows someone else who might be. thanks Zak - zak@computer.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 I'll ask around where I live ... I'd love to do it myself, but I'm nowhere near capable physically. I'll bet you're not the only one who needs a partner, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Zak, Having the good fortune to live in Gillette, and know Dave Lauck, I would suggest you send him an E-mail or give him a call. He may know of other shooters looking for partners. Some thoughts on things to practice with your partner: Practice range estimation. The targets are low contrast, and if you are shooting in the bright sun, even my Leica 1200 was scratching it's head. Practice shooting in the wind, once you have the range nailed, the wind causes the most trouble. There are some 350-500 yd carbine shots, and if you aren't used to holding a foot off the target, you'll pay. Develop a routine for the shooting. Find the targets, estimate range (best if you both verify the long ones), estimate wind, hit the carbine targets, engage the long targets, spot and adjust (spotting is an art in itself) Have it worked out so the long rifle guy makes sure you are spotting before he fires. Get in close so you have pretty much the same line of sight. Nothing beats the frustration of firing a round and not being able to tell if you missed by an inch or a mile. Most important, know your gear and bring stuff that runs. Both Sam and I had gun problems in 2003, you can bet that we won't have the same problems in 2004. Good luck finding a partner, Lauck's match is the most fun I've had shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Zak, this is the best match I have ever attended in almost 20 years of shooting matches. The rifle guy thinks he gets to have all the fun. But really it's the carbine guy who shoots 500 rounds. No wait, you both get to hike 10 miles and shoot about 500 rounds. Just the pistol house alone, where the gully course finishes, is better than most matches. After shootin and scootin for about 90 minutes you end up at the shoot house. I fired about 200 rounds from thirty-some-odd positions, in about 7 minutes. When the RO gave the "show clear" command at the end, my fingers sizzled on the slide! No sweat, somebody else will be looking for a partner too. See you there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Just the pistol house alone, where the gully course finishes, is better than most matches. After shootin and scootin for about 90 minutes you end up at the shoot house. I fired about 200 rounds from thirty-some-odd positions, in about 7 minutes. When the RO gave the "show clear" command at the end, my fingers sizzled on the slide! How the heck do you even carry that much pistol ammo? If you're shooting a 1911, that's 25 8rd magazines! Or do you carry it "loose" and reload the magazines on the way? Do you hump all 500 rounds for your carbine ammo in magazines? Stripper clips? Boxes? Just being able to negotiate the terrain pretty much amazes me. Thinking about doing it carrying everything you need to complete the match is ... scary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Rhino, I would estimate the gulley course to be 1.5 miles or so, I asked Lauck how long it was, and even he doesn't know for sure. The 500 rounds of carbine is for the whole match, the gulley only requires half that. Still, you need to make some allowances for misses. IIRC I had 8 or 9 30 rd mags, 6 in a Blackhawk vest, 2 or 3 in 3-Gun Gear pouches (their thigh rig is awesome), and about a hundred rounds loose in a ziplock. While I huffed up the hills, my patient partner Sam crammed rounds in the AR mags and passed them back when needed. For the pistol, Sam and I were both shooting our STI .40 S&W limited guns, and we had about 10 high caps between us. I had to reload for Sam as he made a friggin' awesome run (read no misses, pieing the corners) through the shoot house, but not a whole lot. Shooting a SS is feasible, but the carbine man will be loading on the run constantly through the house. High caps rule. One other note, there are about 50 steel targets that must fall to score around the shoothouse (mini-poppers, MGM econo-droppers, 5 plate racks). No such thing as a calibration request at this match, so bring a .40 or better, or plan on making a lot of head shots on the steel with a 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Man, that's awesome. Maybe some day they'll have a special category for old fat guys who can ride on 4-wheelers or something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Another neat thing is all the cool gear you absolutely have to wear. Spec-Ops Brand Rules! Most guys seem to carry about 200 rounds of carbine/rifle on their person for each of the three stages, but on the gully course you just fill every compartment on your vest with pistol and carbine magazines and loads of loose ammo. And pack plenty of water! There is no long range rifle shooting on the gully, so your travelling light. And BTW, since the thread is about looking for a partner, having John Dunn as a partner totally ROCKS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted March 7, 2004 Author Share Posted March 7, 2004 I'll be shooting the '04 ITRC with Glenn Frank. Can't wait.. except for all the practice I need between now and then! -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 Look forward to meeting you guys in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 Excellent Zak! I look forward to meeting you guys too. (I'll be the old gimpy looking guy hanging around with JD ) Heck, I wouldn't worry about practicing. The ranges are pretty reasonable and the wind never blows in Razor City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 All right, it won't happen this year or probably the next, but BigDave has promised that if I ever get in good enough shape to do this match, he'll shoot it with me. If it ever happens, we're going to RULE THE RANGE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAL Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 After much thought we are going to give this a try, I have a partner set up and we have been shooting together to practice for about 6 months or so. I was told by my Friend Nik H, ( we are co MD's at our local range) That I should get some email going back and forth with John and Sam, for some advice, I am sure what was posted here is just the tip of the iceberg. So far the bolt guns are taken care of, And we will both run Sti .40 limited guns for pistol. The carbine is up in the air we have a JP ctr2 limited .223 or a worked up Ar10 to choose from. If it comes down to round count the .223 would get the slot. But for wind the .308 takes the cake. And Ideas??? Hope to see you guys there and I am planning being there for the open range time the day before, What hotel to stay in?? or are you just going to the bunk house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 KAL, Great to hear you guys are coming. For the carbine I think about 99% (or more) are using an AR in .223. The AR-10 might be a slight advantage on the long range courses (due to wind), but would be a detriment on the gulley course where the shooting is fast and furious and you have to pack a crapload of ammo. The year I ROed the match Voigt and Cooley won the thing using an AR-15 in .223. If the 6.8 SPC ever takes off, that may become the ultimate gamers round for the carbine. Sam and I are planning on the AR-15 again this year. The match hotel in the past has been Towers West Lodge, but talking to Lauck I think it is going to change this year. Later I'll try to post a link to the Gillette chamber of commerce, visitor's center or something. I'm lucky because I live in Gillette and get to sleep in my own bed through the match, Sam get's dibs on the spare room! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 The factory 6.8 load is a 115gr BC 0.365 at somewhere between 2700-2800 in an 18" barrel. Compare to 75gr .223, which is BC 0.395 at about 2725. There's not going to be a lot of difference between those in trajectory. It will definitely hit steel harder. I should have some solid first hand data on 6.8 in the next month. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I knew the 6.8 would draw the gamers out of the woodwork! Seriously, I'll try to run some ballistic program comparisons between the 6.8 and .223, specifically looking at wind drift. At carbine ranges (0-500yds), I don't think trajectory is as big a deal as wind drift. The wind can seriously eat your lunch. I've seen somewhere that Black Hills has a hot 77gr .223 load that pushes the pill at 2900fps they are making for the military. Don't know if it is available to the general public, or not. Might be just the ticket for Wyoming wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 Isn't wind drift going to be a function of BC and flight time? If that is so, I would expect two loads with similar BC and MV to have similar drift. The hot BH load is the MK262Mod0 (or Mod1?). There was an AR15.com group buy of like 50k rounds of it through Georgia Precision last year. It took about 6-7 months for delivery. The velocity ended up 50-100fps faster than Red Box and it was not as accurate. On the 6.8, I just had to try it out. Being a "standard" used by LEO and Military, this should catch on better than the proprietary wildcats. I'm having MSTN build me an upper which will be delivered shortly (mostly LMT and PRI components). Dies are on order, I think I can piece together a 650 conversion. I've got 400 rounds of the loaded Remington ammo in my office right now. Until the 115gr bullet is available, we can use the 110gr VMAX. I'm not sure if any of the heavier bullets with fit the OAL. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Isn't wind drift going to be a function of BC and flight time? Bullet weight too, right? I'm thinking of bullet weight as being the "weight" of a ship...and BC being the size of the "sail" that catches the wind. Of course, that is a very crude model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 Flexmoney, BC encapsulates mass, shape, sectional density- everything. That's why in the Hornady reloading book set (and/or Speer), the trajectory tables are based off of BC and MV. If you look at the differential equations that the G1-G8 drag functions use in modern small arms ballistics calculators, they use BC and not mass. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Here is some info as promised: D&L Sports Dave Lauck's home page, match info is under "Proving Ground" Gillette Visitor Info The match hotel is the Wingate Hotel Georgia Precision Info on the 77 gr Black Hills load. Talked to Georgia Precision today, the ammo is not in stock now, but a production run is scheduled for the end of the month. Per the Sierra ballistics program a 115 gr .277 bullet with a BC of .365 zeroed at 100yds under likely match conditions (4500 ft, 85 degrees) is 61 inches low at 500yds, drifts 27 inches at 500 in a 10 mph crosswind. The 77gr Nosler match bullet at 2800fps is 54 inches low and drifts 23 inches. This surprised me as I really thought the heavier bullet would win the wind drift side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Keith, Welcome! We're glad to hear that you are coming. The long range rifles seem to run the gamut from 6mm wildcats to .300 Ultra-Mags. But, just about everybody shoots carbine with ARs in .223. Most of the carbine stuff is within 300 yards and there is a lot of carbine shooting. Most carbine targets are US Poppers. I've got a FAL and an M-1A, but I'd rather dope the wind and shoot the .223 than haul the bigger rifles and ammo. The range to the targets is up to each team to determine. It's doable with a mil-dot or other ranging reticle, but much easier with a range-finder. You'll want to get a good hydration pack and build your ammo carrying strategy around that. Good boots, well broken in, are a must. There is cactus out the wazoo! Carry some band-aids too, it's easy to get scuffed up. A good hat and sun-screen are must haves. You'll be moving at a fast walk most of the time and the altitude can be a factor. I think its about 6500 ft or so. If you live close to sea level, definately do some aerobic training for a few weeks prior. This match is known as "The Proving Ground" for a reason. If anything can break it will. But, boy howdy, it is fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAL Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Guys thanks for some insight, Anything else you can think of would be great, Yeah I am on the beach in NJ so you can say I am at sea level. Will have to get some training time in. The problem we are having with the cheaper civilian range finders is the have to reflect off of a pretty good size target. Cant range a Ipsc size steel target at above 700 yards. Cant afford 2500 on just a range finder at the moment. Do you hump a spotting scope around, It would seem like a must have piece of equipment, Spotter cant call shots with a Acog too low power. Can you call shots? do they impact on earth near target. Or is it catch the Trace in the spotting scope or your lost? Will you guys be around for the open range time on the 27th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Last year Sam and I didn't pack a spotting scope. I had a 5.5-22x on the long range gun, and Sam had a 4.5-14x on the carbine, and we spotted through those. It is super tough to call the shots on some of the targets, the impact gets lost in the grass or sagebrush, or you will end up with a cloud of dust, but you can't tell whether it is from high, low, left or right. Very frustrating. This year I hope to get in a few more practice sessions with Sam and see whether a spotting scope is any better. If it is, we'll hump it. I have mine on Ray-Vin's short scope stand, and it folds up fairly compact. Can't recall seeing many bullet traces last year. Range estimation, doping the wind, and spotting are the toughest things to do right at this match. As long as your gear works, you can be assured of having a blast. I'll be working on open range day, but this match has a high percentage of repeat shooters, and there will be folks out there eager to help out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 I just had to make a new post to bump this one to the front again. Only two weeks away! The helicoper event has been confirmed for quite a while now. Gee....I wonder if we'll be shooting in the only 3 gun match in the country where the contestants will be shooting out of a moving chopper? Man, I'm getting psyched! Time to take my pack and carbine for a long, very fast walk in the hills.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Man, you're inspiring match envy in me again! Shouldn't you have been doing the hikes in the hills with your gear for a while on a regular basis in order to get ready? Or are you one of those guys who is always in great shape? As my rifle shooting improves, this kind of match is really calling to me. I know I could not survive the hiking, but it really sounds fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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