Mixing the number of hits

[2MoreChains]

Hope this isn't something that has already been discussed before, but was wondering how you guys interpret what's on page 50 of the 2005 rulebook regarding mixing the number of hits required on targets within the same string.

Here is what it says on page 50 of Appendix 5:

Requiring multiple hits (i.e. 3-6 hits) on targets simulates real life

encounters and should be encouraged. However, mixing the

number of hits required on targets within the same string leads to

procedural penalties and should be discouraged. The same goes

for mixing strings requiring a 2-2-2 engagement with a 1-1-2-1-1

type engagement.

As I try to divine the "intent" of this guidance, it seems like they are trying to keep it from becoming a memory stage where you have to remember which of the targets is to be shot differently from the rest. That makes sense. But I've also seen/shot stages where all the targets but the first or last target required two hits, and the one that was different was painted with the gun silhouette to indicate that it required a different number of hits (i.e. 6 hits for example).

Am I reading this correctly that while IDPA discourages stage designers from creating stages that rely on memory, the rules don't specifically prohibit the mixing of different number of hits in the CoF? Operative word being "discouraged".

I recently got questioned on one of my stages at a match. It was a short CoF where T1 (which was at arms length) got shot twice in the chest from retention, then once in the head freestyle. Then T2-T4 (5-7 yds out) got 2 each in the chest freestlyle. But we couldn't find anything that specifically prohibited the practice, other than what it says in Appendix 5.

IMO, requiring the 3 hits on the first target was not a big burden memory-wise, and do not think a lot of people had any difficulty following the CoF. Had it been specified that T3 got the three hits, I could see that being a problem and a bunch of people probably would have gotten procedurals for not following the CoF. Am I on a slippery slope?

Thanks!

[steel1212]

I think you'll find that not only is it a problem with the shooters remembering what is what but the SOs as well might have a hard time keeping it straight with everything else they are required to do.

[Steve J]

It's done all the time even in sanctioned matches. Just don't go overboard with it. Tactical sequence 2 or 3 each while retreating followed by 2 each for the rest of the stage, or Mozambique first two, then 2 or 3 each for the rest of the stage are examples that are perfectly fine.

Personally as a shooter, stage designer and match director, I don't mind "thinking stages". People do complain about having to think and remember things while shooting. IMAGINE THAT! We want you to think with a loaded gun in your hand.

[Steve Koski]

Zactly. Either don't mix, or keep it simple. Ala 4 on first target, 2 on the rest.

[JorDanO]

The last Nationals I think there were 4 stages with mixed number of hits required. Of the 4 there were 2 that I really didn't see the the point of mixing it up, other than to get the round count up without adding another target.

[2MoreChains]

I think you'll find that not only is it a problem with the shooters remembering what is what but the SOs as well might have a hard time keeping it straight with everything else they are required to do.

Corey,

Good point, but I think that is something that can be mitigated by making it the first or last target (not one in the middle), and painting it with the pistol or AK silhouette so as to make it as obvious as possible. I'm with you though as far as keeping it KISS.

Thanks guys. Good to know that Nationals has mixed up the number of hits.

ETA: nice avatar! Were you "celebrating" after burning down a stage or zeroing it?

Edited April 14, 2010 by Duane Thomas

[junkie]

providing a good visual clue is a great Idea, Painted rifle or Pistol. Having shot the stages in question it helped me remember.

[steel1212]

Don't get me wrong I'm all for making people think on a stage but it gets kind of rediculas when you say T1 get 2, T2 gets 5, T3 gets 4, T4 gets 1 but only to the head, get my point? If you want to say T1 gets 3, 4, 5 and T6 gets the same with everything in the middle getting 2 each I would have no problem with that. I just don't want to lose a stage having nothing to do with shooting. I shoot IDPA, USPSA, Steel etc to compete at shooting not algebra . Memory stages are fine to an extent and I think shouldn't be overly used but aren't bad every now and then. Then again I'm not a big fan of "monkey motions" unless they are requiring you to do something like shooting off hand. Just my .02 and I know it doesn't agree with some, then again I'm not a IDPA MD and ours does a hell of a job of mixing it up for us.

[2MoreChains]

T1 get 2, T2 gets 5, T3 gets 4, T4 gets 1 but only to the head

Man, if I set up a stage like that I'd probably get run out of town on a rail!

[Duane Thomas]

Has anyone ever designed and run such a stage? I kind of doubt it.

[sirveyr]

Has anyone ever designed and run such a stage? I kind of doubt it.

Yes. I was not the designer, but was the shooter. Great Lakes Regional 2008, IIRC.

"Can you count?" Five targets. Draw a playing card (A-5), engage target with said number of rounds. Each target must have a different number of hits. Example: Draw 3 of diamonds, begin with T3 (3 rounds), T4 (4 rounds), T5 (4 rounds, reload, 1 round), T1 (1 round), T2 (2 rounds). As you can see, certain card and certain division combination's could be advantageous. CDP loved drawing a 2 of diamonds. Not the greatest stage, but it was much better than some of the abortions that I've been forced to shoot.

[detonics]

The rule book does not forbid mixed count stages for a reason. It is incumbent on the stage designer to justify why a particular target receives a different number of rounds that another. The key to that is that it should be realistic. To engage a target that is arms length away with two rounds to the body and one round to the head (Mozambique) and the remaining targets in the stage with only two rounds to the body is realistic. The first target is a very close, immediate threat. It would be the same if the first target was to receive six rounds to the body (Bill Drill). Again, immediate threat at a dangerously close distance.

What we do not want to see is an arbitrary mix with no good reason and that makes a stage about memory over shooting skill. The stage mentioned by sirveyr has no place in IDPA and honesty should not have been approved. I understand that match directors are constantly working to try and add challenging stages to their match but this type of stage should not be the way in which this should be accomplished. I have been there myself and when I was still running matches years ago I wrote a few that were similar. I appreciate you bringing this up and I will make it a point to address this in my next communication to the AC's.

To get back on point, it is ok to mix the round count up a little but in a way that makes sense. This usually is the first or last target. Prop and non-threat placement can help guide the competitor to the correct conclusion. An example would be two rounds to each body on all targets except the last one which gets one round to the head. A strategically placed prop or non-threat that only allows exposes the head would be a good way to explain the mixed count stage.

[Ahab]

I did do one stage like that once, it was a combination of a Bill Drill and an El Pres. Face uprange, and at the buzzer turn, draw and engage T1-T3 with two shots each, reload and do it again, advance to P2 and engage T4 with 6 shots. It was actually a pretty fun stage for a lot of people, and people were very creative with how they'd do it as well. The best runs were people that would finish the El Pres part and then do an RWR while moving to P2 to avoid the standing reload.

[2MoreChains]

So based on the majority of the replies, Ahab's stage (El Pres w/ Bill Drill on T4 at the end) would be fine, and does not go against the rules. It doesn't place a big burden on either the shooter or SO to "remember" which one gets 6 because it's the last target, is probably set off to the side from T1-T3 array, and one could also paint it with the gun silhouette to help make it even more obvious. I like it. If you don't mind, I may "borrow" the idea for May's match.

Thanks!