Magazine Capacity

[George D]

When the US government imposed the mag capacity limit of 10, how did it affect your competition rules. Do your rules still allow double stack over 10?

[Jake Di Vita]

The law they imposed simply banned the new production of high capacity magazines. Magazines that are already high cap are not illegal to own, sell, or buy.

This was no small reason in creating the L10 and Production divisions, obviously with hi cap mags still being made, you wouldn't have as much need for these divisons.

Double stack hi cap mags are definetely still usable in all divisions. You are just limited to what you can put in them in some.

(Edited by TheItlianStalion at 10:13 pm on Oct. 29, 2002)

[George D]

Thanks Jake,

One of the proposals for the new hand-gun laws here (if they're not banned) is to limit magazine capacity to ten. If this does go ahead double stacks would be illegal and owners would have them "bought back" by the government, and would have to then purchase mags with the limit of ten. Is magazine capacity the only difference between some of your divisions? As years go by and the hi-cap mags become extinct, will the hi-cap divisions disappear?

[Jake Di Vita]

You obviously know the differences between Open and Limited (Standard?). The only thing that seperates L10 from limited is that you're limited to 10 rounds. Production is basically no mods allowed that don't come factory and limited to minor scoring with 10 rounds.

Forgive me for not making better comparisons with IPSC divisions, I am not very well versed in them.

[Thomas Moore]

however, high capacity pre banned mags are still available for purchase or if one breaks a tube then high cap replacement tubes can be purchased.

disclaimer "it's against federal law to assemble a new high capacity magazine"

[Patrick Sweeney]

And you can use your hi-caps in Limited 10, provided you don't load more than 10 rounds in them.  The law is supposed to sunset in 2004, and if it does we'll go back to hi-caps.  In that eventuality, I suspect that Limited 10 will be re-defined as the Single Stack Division.

But first we need to twist the arms of our "representatives" and make sure they aren't there to vote on renewing the law.  No quorum (and someone present to make sure there isn't a false quorum declared) and it fades away.

[George D]

You guys have laws that sunset?? I can't believe it. In Australia once laws pass into legislation they are there until hell freezes over.

At the moment shooters in this country are in limbo while politicians decide our fate. I think the minimum we can expect is a legal limit on mag capacity (forever) but there is a possibility that all semi-autos will be banned which will mean IPSC will only be shot with revolvers. OTOH the anti-gun lobby insist that DA revolvers are semi-autos, so if they go too, IPSC and most other hand-gun sports in this country will disappear into the sunset forever.

[Irishlad]

Hello,

If the 10 round mag law is renewed in 2004, is there any chance the USPSA will change to 10 rounds or do you think they will continue with the high caps?

I am asking that question for practical, financial reasons, not to stir debate on 10 rounds, etc. As I become more involved in the sports I have been hesitant to move towards the high cap guns and mags.

Take care

[Jon Merricks]

I do not think that USPSA will ever go completely to 10 rounds in all divisions.  Unless it becomes illegal to have standard capacity mags (hi caps) pre ban or not.  

[lynn jones]

ok, first of all...

the hi-cap magazine is the wrong term.

this is what we were brian washed with by the anit-gun people.

it is a standard capacity magazine.. the new magazines are limited to 10 rounds.. see the difference?

if the law is renewed, nothing changes, it stays as it is now.

keep up the good fight in oz land.

see ya'll later , that's southern for  "g'day mate"

lynn jones  

[Vince Pinto]

Lynn,

I'm proud of you, my son. Ya done good.

A 17 round Glock 17 magazine is standard capacity.

A 10 round Glock 17 magazine is reduced capacity.

And the truth shall set you free ........

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 4:07 am on Nov. 2, 2002)

[lynn jones]

(Edited by lynn jones at 1:30 pm on Nov. 1, 2002)

[lynn jones]

i learned from the best..

thanks vince.

i just beat you to the punch. it's 3:12 pm here...he he

[Duane Thomas]

"ok, first of all...

the hi-cap magazine is the wrong term.

this is what we were brian washed with by the anit-gun people.

it is a standard capacity magazine.. the new magazines are limited to 10 rounds.. see the difference?"

Well....believe me, I hear what you're saying. But the truth is that 15-plus magazines were called "high capacity" WAY before the Crime Bill. They were high capacity magazines then, they're still high capacity magazines now.

And how many angels CAN dance of the head of a pin, anyway?

[Irishlad]

I did use the wrong term.

An easy designation would be "high cost" and "standard cost" mags.

Take care

[MBneACP]

I posted this on one of the other forums, but I want to get us all thinking in this direction...

In the wake of Tuesday's elections, I think there's a better than even chance that the 1994 Ban will *not* be renewed (Dave Kopel, writing in the National Review Online, agrees).

As I mentioned before, both Dave Thomas and I have spoken with NSSF (and the NSSF Washington guys) about USPSA's position that the Ban has harmed us directly, and in the absence of any proof whatsoever that the ban has had an effect on crime, magazine capacity should be a dead issue.

I haven't yet talked to the Powers That Be at the gun companies, who have spent a fortune complying with the Ban. I am, however, meeting with the USPSA BofD in Dallas in a couple of weeks, and one of the issues I want to bring up is the creation of a rational strategy to push for letting the Ban sunset.

I haven't given this enough thought yet, and I don't really have a suggestion for a strategy that might work. I do know that USPSA has to have a closer relationship with our various Washington lobbies.

MB

[George D]

Michael,

Politicians never want to know if a ban has had an effect on crime. They pander to popular and media opinion. Work on the media and the pollies will follow.

[banjobart]

The Browning Hi-Power pistol gets it's name from the High-Capacity magazine that it employs.  

(Certainly not from the 9mm cartridge that it uses).

High capacity magazines have been around for a hundred years and have been in common use for 67 years.

Originally the pistol's name was High-Power but was shortened later to Hi-Power if I recall correctly.

Duane is correct.

[Vince Pinto]

The term "gay" originally meant "cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement" and "bright and lively".

When was the last time any of you guys used the word "gay" to describe such emotions, huh?

These days the term "high-capacity" is used against us by anti-gun groups to describe magazines which are, in fact, standard capacity.

We can be part of the problem or part of the solution and I really can't believe I need to explain this matter in a shooting forum.

Get with the program guys!

[Duane Thomas]

Strange, I thought I was with the program. I just didn't realize the program required me to use new words instead of those that have always been used to express the concept. Wait, that's called....political correctness!

Of course, in two years this will all be ancient history to me AND my high capacity magazines.

[Vince Pinto]

Duane,

I realise you're with the program, but I'm just asking you to consider whether our using terms such as "hi-capacity" or "assault weapon" or any of the other terms which have been hijacked and/or misused by our opponents serves us well in the current political climate.

The indisputable fact is that the G17 was designed, from the very outset, with a 17 round magazine, and it's only due to the activities of anti-gun groups that 10 round "reduced capacity" magazines were reluctantly made by Mr. Glock.

And yes, it is indeed political correctness to use the appropriate terms because unless we get our political act together, including terminology, we put ourselves at the mercy of the same people who try to convince people that mini-poppers represent children instead of telling the truth, which is that mini-poppers are used to simulate distance. If you use their terms, you submit to their definitions.

We'll never convince the anti-gun groups that we are rational people who enjoy shooting guns but we can tell the truth to the vast majority who are undecided.

Here endeth the lesson. Can you feel the love?

[Duane Thomas]

I hear what you're saying. But "high capacity" and "assault rifle" are OUR terms, not terms dreamed up by the enemy. If we allow ourselves to be ashamed of them, to abandon their usage, have we not accepted our opponents' negative view of them?

[Vince Pinto]

Duane,

We'll just have to agree to disagree (which of course, in itself, plays right into the hands of our opponents). Hence you call:

A 17 round magazine for a Glock 17 "hi-capacity", I'll call it "standard capacity".

A 10 round magazine for a Glock 17 "??-capacity", I'll call it "reduced capacity".

An AR15 an "assault weapon", I'll call it a "semi-automatic rifle".

You see, merely owning an AR15 does not universally define intent as I could use it as an assault weapon or as a defensive weapon or as a hunting rifle or even for IPSC (or other) competition.

To me, a baseball bat used in a convenience store robbery or a box cutter used in an aircraft hijacking is an "assault weapon".

The term should be used to describe the intent behind the inanimate object, not the inanimate object itself, but I've been wrong before.

[omnia1911]

Vince,

The term "standard capacity", in my case, (1911 single stack) refers to 7 rounds. I carry with 8 round mags and compete in IPSC with 10 round mags. In my case, the standard capacity is the reduced capacity.

Vince, some of us don't shoot Glocks. :-)

(Edited by omnia1911 at 10:47 am on Nov. 10, 2002)

[Vince Pinto]

Omnia1911,

Noted and understood, but you are still under the "bad guy" limit.

However the STI/Para "wide-body" genre were designed with +16 round mags as standard, so any law which forces a new "post-ban" buyer of those guns to use only 10 round mags is forcing him to use "reduced capacity" magazines.

When anti-gun groups describe +16 round STI genre mags as "hi-cap", they imply we are using magazines which hold more than the norm for those guns but that is a lie.