Fixed Time Rules

[Skywalker]

IPSC Handgun Rulebook 2004

9.2.4 "Fixed Time" – Limited time, limited number of shots to be fired, stipulated number of overall hits to count for score.

9.2.4.2 Fixed Time must use paper targets exclusively and they should, where possible, be disappearing targets.

9.4.6.1 Overtime shots (i.e. shots fired after the signal to cease fire has been given), will each be penalized the value of the maximum scoring hit available on that target, except in the case of disappearing targets.

I need a clarification here: if the stage design allows me to shoot at disappearing targets after the signal to cease fire (but not exceeding the stipulated total number of shots), and I'm able to score hits with these shots, I won't be penalized?

[Garfield]

Hi Sky,

I have been reading these rules over and over again and I come to the same conclusion

[james h]

if i were ROing i would apply the penalty for overtime shots as per 9.4.6.1.

the idea behind fixed time is to simulate turning targets where none are available therefore overtime shots would be fired at thin air so could not hit if turners were used. the problem was that gamey sods continued firing after the second beep on statics targets and were trying to make up points. the problem i have with this rule is it depends on you hearing the beep and the RO needs to be aware of echoes and the sound of the action which can and do get picked up.

as for disappering targets not diasappering then they cannot be dias.. so 9.4.6.1 still applies

clear as mud

james

[Neil Beverley]

Skywalker

The intention is to remove the benefit of any hit on a target which is theoretically no longer there. Therefore if you fire a shot after the signal to cease firing and there is a target or targets capable of being hit then it is assumed that the shot hits a (the) target and this hit is removed from score.

The rule is written to remove the benefit of the hit and please note that it is always assumed that the late shot results in the highest hit on the target so the highest is removed. It is not intended to be a penalty as such but merely to remove any possible benefit from the late shot.

In the case of disappearing targets then they aren't there to receive a hit so we don't remove any hit value.

Think of it as any late shot being completely ignored from the scoring process - if a late shot hits a target then don't count it and if the late shot misses the target then no problem.

[Skywalker]

Neil,

I can understand the spirit of the rule, and I agree with that.

But there is a problem that comes to my mind: I'll try to explain it with an example.

I set a fixed time exercise where the time stops after (let's say) 5 seconds.

Let's also assume I am not so good at stage designing (which is not so far from reality), and I set up a bobber that at the end of its oscillating movement (let's say after 30 seconds) will completely disappear behind a steel barricade.

Now, I shoot other stage targets wasting all 5 seconds on them; I hear the stop signal and after it shoot the bobber (which after 5 seconds is still "bobbing") and get two Cs.

I feel these two Cs shouldn't count for score (they've been shot after the stop signal), but I shot a disappearing target, thus exception provided by rule 9.4.6.1 will apply, and I'll get my two Cs.

The implicit assumption (which is not always valid) made in rule 9.4.6.1 is that the disappearing targets set up for the stage won't be anymore visible after the stop signal, thus it is impossible to shoot them after the stop signal.

[LPatterson]

Skywalker,

I agree with the spirit of the rules BUT I believe that the stage as you have described it would require that the points be scored because the moving target does disappear eventually.

//RANT ON

BUT I shoot under USPSA rules so all that may be moot in 3 months or so when we finally see the rules.

//RANT OFF

If the moving target at rest were to show a portion of the highest scoring zone then penaties could be applied. Disappearing targets were originally meant to be those that presented a single appearance to the shooter.

But now is the time to get a decision from Uncle Vinny.

[Rob Bagnato]

Now, I shoot other stage targets wasting all 5 seconds on them; I hear the stop signal and after it shoot the bobber (which after 5 seconds is still "bobbing") and get two Cs.

I am not 100% sure of the rule number but, that bobber would probably not be considered disapearing since it make itself visable x number of times.

Since your course doesn't sound like a visual start course you would have to rely on the par time feature if your timer. Most stages that I have shot like that give you .30 on top of the time. This give you the opportunity to react. The R.O. would simply require a look at the timer and score.

[Skywalker]

I am not 100% sure of the rule number but, that bobber would probably not be considered disapearing since it make itself visable x number of times.

According to IPSC rulebook 2004, disappearing targets no longer exist: only moving targets exist. Or, at least, their definition has vanished.

9.9.1 Moving targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.5).

9.9.2 Moving targets, which do not comply with the above criteria, will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

Thus, since the bobbers I cited in the previous example will eventually stop and won't show the highest scoring zone, they fall into 9.9.2 provision. Does this make sense?

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

1. An Overtime Shot is an Overtime Shot. Period. Each shot you fire after the allocated time is an Overtime Shot (but see my next post).

2. However in allocating time, we recommend using a "single exposure disappearing target", because it's much better to have a "visual" Fixed Time (i.e. the target is no longer visible), than to have an "audible" Fixed Time (i.e. a "time's up" signal on the timer, but where the target is still visible, either static or moving).

3. If "single exposure disappearing targets" are used, no shot thereon is considered to be an "Overtime Shot", because it must have occurred while the target was visible (i.e. during the time allocated).

4. If you use a "multiple exposure disappearing target" (i.e. the target continues to be visible after the allocated time), you must rely on the timer to determine Overtime Shots, because such targets do not provide a visual end to the allocated time I mentioned in Point 2 above.

Hope this helps.

[Skywalker]

Vince this helps a lot, and clears the mud I was swimming in (at least for me).

Do you agree that, according to

3. If "single exposure disappearing targets" are used, no shot thereon is considered to be an "Overtime Shot", because it must have occurred while the target was visible (i.e. during the time allocated).

Rule 9.4.6.1 needs a better wording, since per the actual one it creates a lot of confusion (lack of "single exposure disappearing targets")?

[Vince Pinto]

Skywalker,

Dammit. You beat me by 1 minute! Anyway:

The implicit assumption (which is not always valid) made in rule 9.4.6.1 is that the disappearing targets set up for the stage won't be anymore visible after the stop signal, thus it is impossible to shoot them after the stop signal.

This is a valid observation and (thinking on the run!), this can probably be remedied with the following changes (additional words in bold):

9.2.4.2 Fixed Time must use paper targets exclusively and they should, where possible, be "single exposure" disappearing targets (i.e. targets which present an "edge-on" view to the competitor at the end of the allocated time).

9.4.6.1 Overtime shots (i.e. shots fired after the signal to cease fire has been given), will each be penalized the value of the maximum scoring hit available on that target, except in the case of "single exposure" disappearing targets.

And, hey, you're not bad for a guy who can't speak English

[Skywalker]

Skywalker,

Dammit. You beat me by 1 minute!

It's a helluva time for a speed shoot!

And, hey, you're not bad for a guy who can't speak English

Vince, I'll send this quote to Riccardo, since it's 23:14 of December 30 (for me) and for the 5th night in a row I'm here translating the rulebooks...

[Vince Pinto]

Skywalker,

Don't worry about asking your questions - there are a whole bunch of guys translating the rule books into their own languages right now, and I've got questions coming at me from all over the world. Luckily for me, Europeans are the easiest for me to deal with, because most of you have an excellent command of the English language.

The tough questions are those coming from countries where English is not an official or prominent language, such as most of Asia.

And the USA

[RogerT]

Hi all.

What about rule 9.2.4.1 in IPSC Jan 2004 edition of handgun rules?

"A competitior's score is calculated by adding the highest value stipulated number of overall hits, minus penalties. The overall stage results are not factored, and competitors are ranked by the actual nett points achieved by them."

What does "stage results are not factored" mean?

How do we use WinMSS with these rules?

Hoping for a simple explanation to a non existing problem....

Roger Tiensuu (RogerT)

IPSC Production shooter, Sweden

[Vince Pinto]

What does "stage results are not factored" mean? How do we use WinMSS with these rules?

Hoping for a simple explanation to a non existing problem....

It means exactly what it says. Unlike Comstock, where the stage winner might actually score 90 points but he's given the maximum available (say) 100 points (e.g. he's factored), and everybody else is ranked accordingly below him, in Fixed Time it's WYSIWYG. If the stage winner scores 90 points, he just gets 90 points - there's no factoring.

And with WinMSS, if the stage is entered correctly as a Fixed Time stage, you just enter the results and the program calculates the scores, just like it does for every other stage.

And I have no idea what you mean about "a non existing problem" so perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain?

[Garfield]

Vince: I think our new forum member is hoping that there is no problem, that it is just his failing to understand the rules.

Roger: Welcome to EnosVerse, I hope you have a good time here !

And a special welcome to you, because I too shoot IPSC PD !

[Vince Pinto]

Garfield,

I hope (and in retrospect, I think) you're right. I guess I'm just used to some people using the expression "non-existent problem" in a different way.

Come to think of it, the only thing I'm not certain about is whether or not the latest release of WinMSS includes an option for Fixed Time scoring yet, and that might be Roger's question. As you can probably imagine, it's a lot of work for our programmer to update WinMSS to deal with the various changes which arose with the 2004 Edition rulebooks, which he didn't receive until mid-December.

Anyway, if the latest version of WinMSS does not yet have a Fixed Time scoring option, it will very soon - I'm processing these punch cards as fast as I can

[RogerT]

Hi Garfield and Vince and thank you for your answers and welcoming words.

As you know, english isn't my native language so my expressions are of course a bit out of date or confusing for you. In my work as a technical writer I do use english a lot but thats a different language, technical descriptions, as you all know...

Back to topic. I have the latest version of WinMSS (3.0) and it doesn't have "Fixed Time" as a scoring method yet, and that's why I asked the question. I'm active on a swedish shooting forum as well and I started a topic about the new rule changes there and this question originated from "Iron9" (who also is B E Forum reader).

Vince, if you meet the programmers working with WinMSS, please send our regards for a great job with the latest versions, it gets better and better! A nice touch with the Stage Briefing feature, for example.

[Skywalker]

Roger,

I've been quite in touch with the WinMSS development team (I've been a Beta-release tester, then I've sent them several test/bug reports during last year), and I know there is a major release to be unveiled in February (after 12, according to the WhatsNew.txt file contained in WinMSS 3.0 package), presumably after the Shot Show, where they will be meeting to discuss future improvements/implementations.

Maybe this new release will implement the new ( ) fixed-time count method.

[Vince Pinto]

Roger,

Your English is much better than my Swedish, so don't worry about making mistakes here. I just hope you will share whatever information you learn here with your colleagues on the Swedish shooting forum. To that end, I hereby appoint you as the official IPSC rules delegate to the Swedish IPSC Shooting Forum.

Kneel Roger. Arise Sir Roger (and sorry about cutting your ear - I'm using a brand new Glock Light Sabre)

I must confess I haven't touched WinMSS for at least 1 year, so I'm really out of touch with it's development, but I will definitely pass on your compliments to Chris Zelinski, Chief of the WinMSS Development Team, who I expect will have Fixed Time available very soon. Judging from the many compliments we receive, he's doing a fantastic job.

In fact when I was having one of my regular chats with the IPSC President last night, he told me that WinMSS already has an "awarding" feature, where a Match Director can decide how many awards he wants to give for each Division and Division/Category (e.g. Top 16 for X, Top 8 for Y, Top 3 for Z), and the software will extract the information and generate the necessary lists. This is very cool.

[RogerT]

Oh, Dark Lord of IPSC, I'm not worthy of such a high and prominent official appointment, but I will for sure pass on anything I learn at this forum to my humble fellow shooters in the small northern community called Sweden..

It's not a dedicated IPSC forum by the way, but a general shooting forum with dedicated members of which some are IPSC shooters.

And what about a WinMSS thread on this forum with some interaction from the design team of the program? Or are they choked with feed back from the "real world"?

Roger

(hobbling backwards, holding one hand on ear and the same time bowing)

(ps Yes, I had to look up some words in the dictionary)

[Vince Pinto]

Roger,

I doubt Chris Zelinski has the time to deal with a WinMSS Forum here but, as you might know, he's very responsive to his Beta Testers (and others), and he does listen to constructive criticism.

I understand that he usually gets XX suggestions about "Subject Y", so this is effectively one suggestion made multiple times and, so far, the system is working well. However if you (or any other WinMSS user), has a problem or suggestion, email Chris at winmss@ipsc.org, but of course there's no need to remind him to update WinMSS due to recent rule changes.

[Garfield]

the small northern community called Sweden..

Ha ! And you call Sweden small ? Come over here and I'll show you small !

[Vince Pinto]

Um Garfield,

Do you really wanna talk small ? Read this then read this, take two Panadol, then call me in the morning

[Skywalker]

Vince,

having met you in Terni, I understand that 1,042 sq Km are definitely cramped for a man of your size!

OTOH, I am pretty sure that, talking about small, our Jap friends can relate about the size of their houses (actually cubicles...)!