hugeevilrobot Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Hey all- new to posting, though I've been lurking for a few months. I'm ordering my first evil black rifle in the next few days (del-ton kit on stag lower), and looking to use it primarily for local 2/3 gun events and for range play- HD is a bonus, but not really the point of the gun. I've searched for most of this stuff, but having a hard time finding answers, though I wouldnt be surprised if its all been gone over before. Anyway, my main questions are: 1) optic- it's been debated a million times, but I can't decide between the Aimpoint Comp C3, leupold VXII 1-4x, and vortex viper 1-4x. Heard great stuff about all of them- would the leupold/vortex be almost as fast when at 1x? I don't believe there are a ton of 200+yd 3 gun events around here, and none of these are terribly expensive, just curious if any of those are definite go/ no gos- haven't heard a ton about the C3, other than a few folks who say its the same as an ML3 with a 15ft submersion max. 2) related to optic- would it be worth it to have a front A2 sight for cowitness, a flip up on the gas block, or nothing at all? I imagine the answer is contingent on whether I'm going with the aimpoint or one of the 1-4x scopes? 3) gas system- I apologize in advance, as I'm new to the AR platform, but is there any reason to go with a mid-length gas system over a rifle-length on a 16" barrel? I've seen a number of folks recommend sticking with the rifle on an 18/20" barrel, would this hold true for a 16? Thanks in advance, if this has all been covered before, I apologize, but I'm having a hard time finding answers for anything other than the first question, which has been debated to the point it makes my head spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 #1 Depending on timeframe the Vortex will not be available until later this year... Overall I would strongly recommend a 1-4 optic with daylight visible illumination. Pic one that fits your budget and get shooting. #2 There is no real advantage to a fixed front sight from a 3 gun standpoint when running a powered optic. Conceivably you could use back up irons if your optic fails. However, when you consider that this will require both front and rear flip up sights and a quick release scope mount. There is approx. $300 dollars that could have been allocated to a higher quality optic. #3 My preference is for an 18-20" barrel and rifle length gas system. If you are running a 16" barrel then opt for the midlength gas system as both of these will shoot significantly softer than a carbine length gas system. There are some who run a rifle length gas system on a 16" barrel. Reliability seems to vary for this setup and generally requires a little more tweaking with respect to carrier/buffer weights and the amount of gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 hugeevilrobot, Listen to Smokshwn, he knows what he is saying. Have you ever thought of an EOTech or something with just a dot? There are some factors you have omitted so it is hard to give advice but you did say most/all of your targets are under 200 yards so do you really need some power? My son (young eyes) can smoke with a 16 inch topped off with an EOTech out to about 275 yards. Now for me I can't see targets over 120 yards without some help so hence I use a Meopta 1X4, this is my favorite choice but I "need" the power. If I could afford a 1X6 I would but.... I see no reason to have an iron sight backup...unless in combat. With the Meopta if the light goes out I can still see the dot/cross hairs if needed hence I don't really need a backup. A little maintance will go a long ways here. If your targets are under 200 a 16 inch barrel is just fine. And as Shawn said use the carbine gas system. Hope this helps, RLTW, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugeevilrobot Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 smokshwn and busyhwk, thanks for the replies- very helpful. I'm pretty agnostic as to barrel length (since this is pretty much just a fun gun), though being located in northern VA, very few local ranges are outdoor, and I don't think any that are other than a .mil range at quantico have anything over 200yds. I lean towards the 20" after what Shawn said regarding the recoil, as long as folks dont think it would be a big hinderance on shorter stages. Regarding the optic- my eyes aren't bad per se, but they aren't great, and I do like the idea of being able to use something like the Leupold 1-4x at some bigger matches where targets could be 200+ out. Thanks again for the help, you guys are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSiess Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 An 18 inch barrel with a rifle length gas system would be a pretty good way to go. Rifle length gas system so it doesnt recoil as much as a carbine or midlength. 18 is a pretty good compromise between maneuverability, velocity, and recoil. Everyone has a preference but a 20 inch is pretty long, especially when you add another couple inches to the end with a compensator. Have you looked into compensators at all? Tons of info on this site. Lots of good comps out there, but I like the Rolling Thunder from Benny Hill. Have fun! -N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I would say go with a 20" barrel and rifle gas system with iron sights. I don't think a 20" barrel causes any manuverability problems (heck, I have seen people shoot house clearing stages really quick with an M1A). Spend the money you saved by not buying optics on ammo. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sono Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) What Hurley said. I run an 18 incher and can clear a house stage fine. Practice and knowing your rifle is the key. Run irons buy ammo and save the headache of picking an optic. Ryan Edited February 24, 2010 by sono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugeevilrobot Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Once again, thanks for the help. I'll be going with irons to start, and transition to a good 1-4x or possibly aimpoint when I save up a bit more for good glass. Any recommendations on good front & rear irons (no A2 front sight on this one)? Kinda leaning toward some kind of flip up so that I can move them to another gun as backups if/when i mount a scope, but if there are good fixed ones for a reasonable price, i'd be fine with that as well (and if irons are as good as a lot of you guys say, might just forget about the scope). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 When you do transition to glass, get rid of that pesky front sight. It just gets in your field of view. All the tommy tactical guys talk about co-witness, but you don't need it. Put the dot on the target, shoot the sucker and move on. If you do want back up irons, put on a gas block with a flip up sight. It will be there if you need it, (but you won't), but having it there will make you feel better. You will never use them, and then one day you will realize that you can take it off and clean your fore end up. You can shoot a dot for a long time and the front sight won't bother you, then shoot a long time with no front sight- no big deal, but then GO BACK to a gun with a front sight and you will be wondering how you could even see with that big honking thing in the way. I know others will chime in and debate these points, and that's what's great about this sport, you can set up your gun just like you want it. You can even do like me and take all the sights off period. They just get in the way. Hey go down range and hold this apple for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugeevilrobot Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 When you do transition to glass, get rid of that pesky front sight. It just gets in your field of view. All the tommy tactical guys talk about co-witness, but you don't need it. Put the dot on the target, shoot the sucker and move on. If you do want back up irons, put on a gas block with a flip up sight. It will be there if you need it, (but you won't), but having it there will make you feel better. You will never use them, and then one day you will realize that you can take it off and clean your fore end up. You can shoot a dot for a long time and the front sight won't bother you, then shoot a long time with no front sight- no big deal, but then GO BACK to a gun with a front sight and you will be wondering how you could even see with that big honking thing in the way. I know others will chime in and debate these points, and that's what's great about this sport, you can set up your gun just like you want it. You can even do like me and take all the sights off period. They just get in the way. Hey go down range and hold this apple for me... Not saying i want to get all sorts of tacticool with a scope and front sight, I want to shoot just irons for a while and at least get proficient with them. I have an el-cheapo reflex sight on a .22, and it really seems like there isn't a huge learning curve shooting it, at least at the short ranges near me. Just want to follow the advice of some folks on here and mess around with irons for a few months or so, then decide if I want to go scoped. I only noted the flip up sights earlier so that I have the option to throw them on a non-game gun later (and I had heard some really good reviews of the magpul BUS). If there is a set of relatively reasonably priced fixed irons that people are a fan of, I'm fine with that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 You can get a clamp on front sight base (or take a regular front sight base and drill the bottom of it for set screws)and put it right behind the comp. When shooting irons, you want all of the sight radius that you can get. You will probally want a thin front sight post. There are thin posts available that are round, square, ones that look like a golf ball on a tee (I like these with either a .032 0r .052" ball and I paint the ball bright orange) and fiber optic as well. As for a rear sight, I like a carry handle with an A2 sight. For close targets, I look over the top of the rear sight with the carry handle acting somewhat like a rib on a shotgun and hold the front sight ball on the target like it is a red dot. This method works good for me out to about 25yds. Remember, Irons are awesome. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disjointed Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Not saying i want to get all sorts of tacticool with a scope and front sight, I want to shoot just irons for a while and at least get proficient with them. I have an el-cheapo reflex sight on a .22, and it really seems like there isn't a huge learning curve shooting it, at least at the short ranges near me. Just want to follow the advice of some folks on here and mess around with irons for a few months or so, then decide if I want to go scoped. I only noted the flip up sights earlier so that I have the option to throw them on a non-game gun later (and I had heard some really good reviews of the magpul BUS). If there is a set of relatively reasonably priced fixed irons that people are a fan of, I'm fine with that as well. I would check out the Troy's irons as well if you plan to move them to another rifle for classes, etc. Troy's new dioptic rear sight is nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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