2010 MidwayUSA/NRA Bianchi Cup

[NRAActionPistol]

All,

In an effort to make things a little clearer about several issues that have been brought up about Production Division Rules, we sat down in Columbia, MO and discussed rules and clarifications.

Here is the final interpretation made by the Chief Referee at the 2010 MidwayUSA\NRA Bianchi Cup:

02/08/10 Don Martin Chief Referee

Rule Interpretations:

1. Clarification of Holsters for Production

Rule 3.2.1.i “Holsters must be designed for carry and suitable for everyday use.” Is as follows:

Production holsters must be designed for draw from the top only. Holsters must cover the slide up to ½” below the ejection port in semi-autos and halfway down the cylinder on revolvers. Holster must prevent access to, or activation of, the trigger of the handgun when holstered.

We passed on retention devices when the jump tests were eliminated and the drop gun rule was changed. However rule 3.12.1 should suffice. The above description should make holsters in production eligible for NRA Action Pistol, IDPA and USPSA.

2. Installation of Adjustable sights on Production Guns

Rule 3.2.1 Open notch style sites are legal OEM or aftermarket as long as the following applies:

1. Non adjustable blade style front site to include fiber optic inserts if desired.

2. Production or OEM rear sight that maintains the configuration of the original factory sight or factory sight that is available for that model. Example: The Glock is available with a factory option of an adjustable sight, therefore it is legal to use a similar in configuration OEM or similar replacement aftermarket adjustable sight on any Glock model where that option is available. However, we will not allow any major exaggeration that will add to the original sight radius (pass the rear most portion of the slide) or the addition of automatic range stops, internally or externally. If you think it is questionable it will be!

3. Internal Safety on Series 70-80 1911 Pistols

If the slide and frame are 80 series then the firing pin safety must work, if it is a 80 series frame and 70 series slide it does not. I know this is confusing, and custom made pistols are outside the norm when the regulation was developed. Remember, it is up to the competitor to prove compliance if questioned.

[GK45]

Gentlemen - thanks for reviewing and clarifying some of the common rule questions. I am new to this sport and want to compete this year.

I have to ask one more holster question/clarification request though - does this ruling mean that a Blade-Tech Drop Offset holster would not be allowed? The manufacturer's web-site does call it a carry holster. By applying IDPA rules to the holster, you are saying that by carry, you mean "concealed carry" -- is this the interpretation you intended?

Also - with the amount of revolver gunsmithing that may need to take place to revolvers, and keeping with the 'not externally noticeable modifications' does this mean that a Glock can be modified with a 3.5# connector that has the "Rocket" travel limiter?

thanks

GK45

[Action Pistolero]

The Blade Tech holster you speak of is allowed. We covered this one before. Carry means you can walk around with the gun in the holster and not fear that the gun could hit the ground. I know, the Ghost holster has a lock but what happens if the lock gets disengaged?

As long as the gun will pick up a 3.5lb weight you're good to go.

[Griz]

3. Internal Safety on Series 70-80 1911 Pistols

Now I'm really confused... There are DA 1911s?

[BPiatt]

3. Internal Safety on Series 70-80 1911 Pistols

Now I'm really confused... There are DA 1911s?

There are but that's not what this refers to.

A Series 80 Colt (and some other brands) have an internal firing pin safety that many people remove the parts to get a better feeling trigger. This rule says if your frame and slide have the holes/cuts for these parts, then the parts have to be installed and working.

[GK45]

The Blade Tech holster you speak of is allowed. We covered this one before. Carry means you can walk around with the gun in the holster and not fear that the gun could hit the ground. I know, the Ghost holster has a lock but what happens if the lock gets disengaged?

As long as the gun will pick up a 3.5lb weight you're good to go.

Thank you - I tried to find these answers but they must be buried in other discussions-GK45

[Chuck Anderson]

I've got a Caspian that built from a slide and frame kit I bought at SHOT last year. The frame is cut for the Series 80 parts but the slide is not. Caspian shipped it with the shim. I'm good right?

[Ahab]

Tom, thanks for the rules clarifications especially with regard to the holster issue.

[Action Pistolero]

I've got a Caspian that built from a slide and frame kit I bought at SHOT last year. The frame is cut for the Series 80 parts but the slide is not. Caspian shipped it with the shim. I'm good right?

Correct!

[ffl]

Syd's new (to me) 38 super open gun is a series 80. There are not parts in it for the 80 including the firing pin. the spacer appears to be soldered in place rendering the frame a non series 80 is this legal.

[gm iprod]

If the slide is of series 80 design then I suggest you call the smith that built it and get him / her to sort it asap. Series 70 SLide with Series 80 frame is OK.

Once and for all.

If the SLIDE is of Series 80 design and has provisions for the firing pin safety to be there it has to be there and it has to operate as such. Therefore the FRAME (if not Series 80) will have to have the necessary installed parts to enable the firing pin safety to operate properly. They will and know how to check.

If the FRAME is of series 80 design or has provisions for Series 80 parts and the SLIDE is of Series 70 design, then you do not have to have the firing pin safety system put into the firearm. The SLIDE is the priority here. Frames are made with provisions to be used on BOTH types of SLIDES.

This is specifically aimed at Colt 1911 100% copies, that operate a Firing Pin safety off the trigger bow.

The latest versions from Kimber have a Firing Pin Safety that operates off the Grip Safety. This has the intended, but unnecesary, safety feature. It takes the operation of the Firing Pin Safety away from the trigger and into the grip safety which effectively means the trigger can be smoothed out much more easily.

The best way to go is to get a firearm made with Series 70 Frame and Slide. Obviously good quality parts and gunsmith required.

Next best is to have a Series 70 Slide and whatever frame 70 or 80 and block out the slot in the frame.

Workable, but least desireable, is Series 80 all round. Competent gunsmiths can manage a good trigger for you. BUT the are four more parts to play with, loose or otherwise have go wrong on you.

As a guide the two gunsmiths that I have used have only ever wanted to build AP guns using Series 70 style parts. But have sorted on behalf of a number of AP shooters anything and everything, sometimes you have to work with what you have to work with.

[ffl]

There is no building to the gun it is a used gun that has been shot in competition for a long time. it is just new to me and the mounting of the shroud and the repair/replacement of the grip safety is the only thing needed. The gun has accurails installed so it is not a easy thing to just switch the frame or slide as the purpose was to purchase a gun capable of shooting with the accuracy needed for the cup.

[Allgoodhits]

If the slide is of series 80 design then I suggest you call the smith that built it and get him / her to sort it asap. Series 70 SLide with Series 80 frame is OK.

Once and for all.

If the SLIDE is of Series 80 design and has provisions for the firing pin safety to be there it has to be there and it has to operate as such. Therefore the FRAME (if not Series 80) will have to have the necessary installed parts to enable the firing pin safety to operate properly. They will and know how to check.

If the FRAME is of series 80 design or has provisions for Series 80 parts and the SLIDE is of Series 70 design, then you do not have to have the firing pin safety system put into the firearm. The SLIDE is the priority here. Frames are made with provisions to be used on BOTH types of SLIDES.

This is specifically aimed at Colt 1911 100% copies, that operate a Firing Pin safety off the trigger bow.

The latest versions from Kimber have a Firing Pin Safety that operates off the Grip Safety. This has the intended, but unnecesary, safety feature. It takes the operation of the Firing Pin Safety away from the trigger and into the grip safety which effectively means the trigger can be smoothed out much more easily.

The best way to go is to get a firearm made with Series 70 Frame and Slide. Obviously good quality parts and gunsmith required.

Next best is to have a Series 70 Slide and whatever frame 70 or 80 and block out the slot in the frame.

Workable, but least desireable, is Series 80 all round. Competent gunsmiths can manage a good trigger for you. BUT the are four more parts to play with, loose or otherwise have go wrong on you.

As a guide the two gunsmiths that I have used have only ever wanted to build AP guns using Series 70 style parts. But have sorted on behalf of a number of AP shooters anything and everything, sometimes you have to work with what you have to work with.

Roger,

That is a well thought out reply to the simple, yet complex issue surrounding the wording of the rules surrounding "safety devices as installed must be in working order". Your logic flows, except it flows backwards, in that the frame constitutes the gun or platform, not the slide. However, the markings of 70 vs 80 are on the slide not the frame as I recall, so the logic can only flow backwards. Yet another complexity to the issue, which need not be so complex.

Personally, I think the firing pin block should have been excepted from this rule as it pertains to 1911 platforms, since not all factory 1911's had such a device and not all slides and frames are compatable, i.e. a 80 frame and a 70 slide or vice versa. Maybe the answer could be if the gun and frame have the cuts for the FP block, then it has to be there and has to be working. But if either the frame or the slide do not have the cuts, then it does not have to be there since it can not be there is the answer.

I hope that if the NRA looks into this change/issue that they do not eliminate firing pin blocks/hammer blocks across the board, because removing the hammer block from a S&W revolver would be a huge mistake. So again, examples of how a simple thing can become very complex quite quickly.

When drafting these and other equipment related rules that must cover so many different brands, styles and types of firearms the body making such judgements must be very knowledgable across a very broad spectrum of firearms, and then there is always the ......."what about a ^&%$# that no one thought of". In the later case is where the referee must have some common semse latitude, then the fellow competitors not whine if someone has a something that they did not think of, and they think it to be a competive advantage. The competive advantage in NRA AP is the competitor, not so much the equipment within reason. Because we all know, that a clean 1920 is doable with so many different guns and gun setups, it comes down to a matter of not what is in the holster, but that which is between the ears. This is a tough pill for most all of us to swallow, but it the truth in my opinion.

FFL, email me allgoodhits@yahoo.com about your gun.

Martin

[gm iprod]

Martin,

I know the logic is backwards, the NRA came up with it.

They only look at the slide. If the slide has the holes then the parts must be there and the damn things need to work.

I agree that if both frame and slide are S80 then you should run the parts, if either frame or slide are not S80 then you should not. But as the rules are written and have been interpreted for the last 4 or 5 years, we have the current situation.

[NRAActionPistol]

I know the logic is backwards, the NRA came up with it.

Some of you may not reading this right, firearms would not have to have the parts because both the slide and frame were not designed so. The interpretation covers his situation under custom guns very clearly.

[NRAActionPistol]

To make sure we are all clear we have made the following clarification on the Barricade Event:

All competitors must fire all stages in the standing position. All competitors may use the Barricade for support. No portion of the firearm to rest against the Barricade for Metallic or Production Firearm categories. Competitors will not be permitted to “Lock on to the Barricade”. This course will be divided into four stages, two strings per stage, 6 shots per string, 48 shots; all shots will be fired from behind a barricade.

Production and and Metallic competitors may not lock on to the barricade which means you may not grab the barrel and barricade. This determination is being made to make shooting the Barricade Event as fair and equal for both Semi-Auto's & Revolvers.