gose
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Posts posted by gose
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Here is the skinny on the slots for the shoot offs.
http://3gn.ar15.com/forums/t_13_1/131_.html&page=1&anc=1410#i1410
I guess this is the news posting they're talking about: http://3gunnation.com/news/top_50_3gn_championship_field_set
It all makes sense now
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This info might clear up some questions .
The 3GN rules 3 GUN NATION RULES
After event nine (9), USPSA Multi-Gun Nationals, the top 50 scores will be posted, and these competitors will earn an invitation to the FNH USA 3-Gun Nation Championship, presented by SureFire. Those 50 competitors will also have guaranteed slots to event ten (10), FNH USA 3-Gun Championship, which will precede the 3-Gun Nation championship match held at the same venue. During the FNH 3-Gun Championship, 14 additional slots will be earned, based on series points, for the 3GN Championship. In all, 64 competitors will be invited to the 3GN Championship. In the event a qualified competitor declines the right to compete in the 3GN Championship, N3GA will grant that slot to the next qualified competitor from the overall series standings
No, that's exactly the question actually. When will the top 50 get that invitation and when will the people that are further down the list get their invited when some of the top 50 decide not to come?
With one week to go to the shoot-off, if you were #51 or #55, would you get tickets, hotel and rental car, in case you got an invitation on Sunday morning?
It was handled well last year, so I'm not sure why they decided to do it differently this year.
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They top 64 get it in don't they? If someone thats in the top 64 are a no show then I would assume the next man on the list gets in?
Sure, but the question is, how will #65 know that one of the others backed out? Since they dont seem to take any pre-registrations for the shoot-off match, (or do they?) getting a call next Sunday at 7am saying that youre in might not be of much use if youre a few states away...
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Did they send out any invitations or match info this year? Last year they pinged shooters that were qualified to get a count, but this year I havent heard anything?
I know of a few that are qualified that wont go, so are they going to fill up the shoot-off match with walk-ons, or just have it with fewer people?
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My 69gr SMK loads are 2.252 and they have issues feeding in some mags. They work fine in the CProduct 40 rounders (but not in their 30s!) and all Magpul mags I've tried. Rather than changing a load I know and like, I just make sure I use mags I know work.
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How about 12 stages Thu - Sun?
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Sorry I guess the ProAm, Ozark, tactical shotgun and Midwest 3 gun matches spoiled me into thinking that transfers were taken care of.
The over night shipping on handguns will eat up cash
Yes, and unfortunately quite a few FFLs still dont know that they dont have to ship handguns overnight and can use regular USPS when shipping to other FFLs.
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Then I call the FFL yesterday to get the rifle shipped and I have to pay a $25 transfer fee and $19.95 for shipping? Sorry but that is unacceptable!
I'll take it.
It is for sale. Model 3G just like the gun that won the gun. I know that cost is about par for a transfer and shipping but for some reason I didn't have to pay either fee on the other 5 or so rifles I won at the Outlaw matches this year.
Heh, obviously you never won a gun at Iron man then
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I prefer Fri-Sun. Easier for me to get parts of Thu, all Fri and parts of Mon off than parts of Wed and all of Thu & Fri.
As to the stages, I'd prefer 9 over 10.
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[...] I also "heard" that the Tactical match winner was DQ'd for the same thing then reinstated after further review. I also heard about a DQ for taking off a CR Speed/Safariland belt rig and setting it in the back of the truck/car with the pistol still sitting in the holster. [...]
I was on the stage when Daniel (if you're going to say Tactical Match Winner you might as well use his name because we can all figure it out) burned the SG round. He had the gun off the shoulder and gun sideways when he fired. RO stopped him. Daniel said to the CRO, and he told me a few minutes later, that he knew he had a round left, saw there was a partial clay left and burned the round at it to make sure. RO didn't know what he was seeing and stopped him. Upon later review, it really wasn't a DQ (he was never DQ'd, just stopped). [...]
Thanks Chuck, for an accurate account. When the RO described what he witnessed to the CRO (in some detail) it became apparent to the CRO that no DQ'able offense had actually occured ... per the rules. Hence, the shooter was never actually DQ'd and was thus granted a reshoot as the RO had stopped him.
I guess as the rules stand today, shooting a shotgun sideways with the stock off the shoulder is perfectly legal and can't be seen as an AD as long as its done in a safe direction and youre not moving, right? I can't find anywhere in the rules that you actually have to shoot at targets. Or you can shoot from the hip with your eyes closed, if you want, as long as its done in a safe direction.
So it seems it probably wasnt an AD as the rules are written...
However, if youre moving you actually have to shoot at a target, since thats explicitly mentioned under 10.4.6, or it would be an AD (but I dont think he was moving, right?)
Unsafe gun handling... maybe, there's a little more flexibility here but
"Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:" and its definitely not listed, so it would then have to fall under "not limited to", but if he wasnt moving, it would be hard to even call it unsafe gun handling since the round went in a safe direction...
My personal opinion is that it sounds like an AD, by most definitions of an AD, but it doesnt fall under the definition of an AD in the USPSA rulebook.
Had it been a match run under the SMM3G/IMGA rules I would have called it a DQ based on 2.5.4, but it wasnt and under the current USPSA rules I have a harder time seeing a DQ stick.
Sounds like our squad had way fewer re-shoots than most other squads... I even tried to get one when a target I only shot at twice had four .40 holes in it, guess I need to shoot in another squad at the next match
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I think it is a dis-service, especially to new competitors, to call them bonus...they are required and should be called and scored as such...IMHO.
Or be smaller, and/or have lower bonus value
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Gose,
the cost for the RO's to shoot would also include their transportation back and forth to the range, extra room days, an extra polo (if they did not already have one), and an extra breakfast and dinner per-diem...for approximately 45 RO's.
As for the specific stage you are mentioning...you are correct. Most just needed to reload 3 shotshell rounds, if they didn't miss.
In Christ: Raymond
UPDATE: Woops...I made an error. I initially figured TWO extra days for the RO's to shoot the match. It would only be ONE EXTRA DAY, at a cost of approximately $4,000 extra dallah.
No, you didnt read what I wrote... ;P
Most other matches will pay for your hotel and food during the match and let you shoot the match for free. Thats it, you get nothing more, period.
And that's what I'm proposing that USPSA do as well,ie, instead of getting paid flights and transportation, you get to shoot the match.
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2) It would be great if the RO's could shoot the match before the competitors. (I would love the honor of doing so). But as it was, it took almost 3/4 of a day to even get the stages up to par.
If all other 3-gun matches can do it, why not the USPSA Nationals?
4) This match is pricey. From my understanding (even though the match fees are over $200.00 per shooter), we made almost no profit from it. As a matter of fact, I believe I heard one of the more "senior RO's" tell me we were actually at a loss. This is a function set-up by the USPSA for shooters...and the shooters only. It is for the love of the sport. I am not throwing-out numbers here (cuz that is not my business)...but I kinda sat down and worked it out on my own, and it was pretty darned pricey!! AS AN EXAMPLE - I figure 60 match staff will arrive and stay from four to 9 days (flights, rooms, transportation, breakfast vouchers, dinner per-diem, shirts/polos to wear), rental equipment (ATV's/transportation vehicles/gas, tents, paying the range the cost of closing down a few days for us), targets/clays/wood/props, prize tables, etc... And like I said...quite pricey! And if the RO's were to arrive two days earlier to proof AND shoot the stages (assuming we could finish shooting in one day), it would add close to $7.000 to the cost. OK...nuff said about that.
Well, most matches pay for hotel room and food during the match, thats it... transportation to/from/in the area has to be arranged by the RO him/herself.
The "lost" match fee from the RO shooting the pre-match isnt really a $250 cost, its the cost of material to run him through + prize table, which I would think in a lot of cases would be less than the price of a plane ticket...
As for Daniel's, whether discharging in that manner is considered safe or not by the RO can be debated. Admittedly as an Open shooter I don't always see the loading pattern of the Tactical guys, but how did he have an extra round on that stage without going over the Tactical limit of 9 in the gun at any one time?
The arrays were 3, 5 and 4. You could shoot the first two positions and load four to get an extra round, or shoot the first position and load three, shoot the second position and load one more.
I think that most people shot the first position, loaded three and then didnt add any more unless they missed at the star...
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Prize table was much improved from 2009 as well (missed the match last year). Thanks to everyone for putting on a great match.
The only problem I had with the prize table was that a lot of people didnt get to see how much stuff the generous sponsors supplied! Why is the prize table hidden in a side room that no one has access to? Flaunt it, have people drool over the goodies, do something to show it off and get the sponsor names out there.
If sponsors notice that they get return on their "investment", both in goodwill and/or higher sales they'll be much more receptive to doing it again next year.
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I know I'd be a lot more likely to work the match if they let me shoot it ahead of time. From what I've been told, some from the higher ups, and some from Nationals staff. They used to let the RO's shoot the match, including the three gun. But they had them shoot it in one day. Too many of them didn't think it was worth the hassle to haul all their stuff down, shoot one day, then either leave it all in the hotel room or schlep it back and forth. And on top of that, with 12 stages in one day, most shot poorly anyway. Granted, this is coming from current match staff. Doesn't really answer whether allowing RO's a day or two to shoot now would gain us new blood to staff the match. It would increase the cost of the match. This is definitely not a profit making adventure for USPSA. Bringing everyone in a couple days earlier to set up and shoot the match is going to increase cost. I'd easily pay more for this to occur. Certainly worth some extra coin to help out the RO's, but how many feel the same way?
Granted, most IMGA matches have less than 12 stages, but shooting 10 BRM3G stages in a day cant be a walk in the park either...
Dont most matches let ROs shoot the pre-match for free + hotel costs during the match? Can that really be that much more expensive than paying for hotels and flights? I would have guessed that having people shoot the match for free would actually be cheaper?
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12 stages, even with Time Plus its still going to be a pain unless something dramatically changes, as in shorter stages. We beat the crap out of the RO's at this match. We were short to begin with, and I doubt the long days at this match are going to help draw more staff for next year.
Maybe if the ROs were allowed to shoot the match in a pre-match they would be easier to attract?
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Huge thanks to all the staff, RO's, and sponsors. I had heard less than stellar things about Nationals in the past but now that I have shot it I am planning my return.
+1 on that!
The biggest problem I saw was the plethora of swingers, movers, drop turners, flippers, flyers, etc causes way too many reshoots. It sucks to eliminate the carnival targets but if they slow the flow they gotta go!
In many cases the reshoots are the result of the props being reset improperly. The ROs should double-check that props are reset properly and make sure that the shooters know how to reset them (it might not be obvious to everyone)
In our squad I think we had a total of 5 reshoots; one DQ that was reinstated, one malfunctioning LaRue and two improperly reset props and one for unpatched targets. That doesnt seem too alarming to me, but maybe we were lucky and got to the "bad" props after they were fixed.
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I'm also very curious about the high DQ rate. I'm seeing some very well known and experienced 3-gunners among them. Was there something in common, like a stage that perhaps was pushing the 180?
In our squad we had one breaking the 180 when grounding and one because the weapon was grounded outside of the barrel. Both pretty clear.
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back on topic...let's see, we could always have a separate shotgun category for tube guns...not. but a lot of us will be shooting for "first tube" this weekend.
but think outta the box. if open shotgun is open, no limits on capacity, put tube guns in tactical where there is a capacity limit. WTH? loading by hand, loading with the new 2 round vests or loading with sticks-one thing in common is they are all tube shotguns.
putting flame suit on...
Who says there needs to be a capacity limit in Tactical? USPSA could get rid of that as well...
Most other matches dont have capacity limits in Open OR Tactical, only diff is that you can only start with 8+1 in Tac.
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went to foul the gun and recheck zero. decided to bring along a couple boxes of B&P slugs. GEEEZZZUUSSS! these things are scary accurate.
anyone need a case of fiocchi slugs?
Last time I went to check my slug zero I shot 3-4" 5-shot groups at 100y, so I'd be more than happy to buy them Fiocchis from you
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... Having said that, I quit shooting Open in 3-Gun due to the shotgun.
LOL, I think The reason I'm going into open this next year is due to the shotgun
Same here
With the introduction of the Akdal, it should get cheaper for people to get into open...
The only thing reducing the number of shooters in Open will be the format change of 3GN.
How many shooters will jump ship from open just because of 3GN though... 3-5? If you dont have a shot at making it to the shoot-off anyway, why would you bother switching?
I'm going the other way, I'm leaving TO for Open, so I wouldnt mind a few guys leaving
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Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.
True as long as you completely ignore the changes that USPSA has made in their rule structure over time. (You know, the ones that have taken USPSA farther and farther from IPSC as time has passed.)
Therein lies the rub and motivation to align the rules. Either do it or separate completely. The chaos of the regulations between the two governing bodies are not conducive to it's members or the sport. So what is best for the Sport?
It is pretty much all separated already and both sides seem to be happy with it. The differences dont affect too many shooters anyway.
The US has a pretty different situation than most other countries when it comes to political acceptance for the shooting sports and some of the things we do here are perceived by IPSC to be too un-PC.
On the other side of the coin, IPSC is by a lot of US shooters considered to be way too PC, so if USPSA would align their rules with IPSC a lot of shooters would get upset and it would completely kill any long gun/3-gun under the USPSA umbrella.
So no, I dont think they'll ever get any closer and I foresee them drifting even further apart.
If anything, I could see some countries that are closer to the political situation in the US starting to drift away from IPSC as well
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How does one get tickets to the Shot Show? I live in Las Vegas and would like to attend.
I believe its a "invite" only process.
Are you talking about the SHOT show itself or the 3 Gun Nation event?
The 3GN event is invite only. I don't know about getting into the SHOT show. Doesn't it require a dealers license and registration?
Any FFL can go, so just ask your local FFL if you can represent them...
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Ive traveled to quite a few different locations around the country to shoot and so far there are two places the wife wanted to come with me to, R&R in Alabany and the Nationals in Vegas.
Vegas is one of the cheapest places to fly to, cheap hotels, cheap rental cars, plenty of food and entertainment options, no rain/mud/lightning/tornadoes. Sure, it might get a little hot, but I'll take that over higher prices, wet gear and delays any day.
As for other locations, I probably wouldnt mind Phoenix.
FNH USA 3 Gun Championship Nov 10-12, 2011
in Multi-Gun, Rifle & Shotgun Match Announcements
Posted
I see you more like Blofeld than Bond actually....