gose
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Posts posted by gose
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I wasn't tainting data by mixing in stage points, I COMPARED total time to stage points, showing how total time isn't fair in a match that has stages that are drastically different in length. My example was not as drastic as I have see actual 3gun matches turn out either. Some I have seen with the shortest stage being around 20 seconds and the longest near 4 minutes, which would really skew the results with total time.
Simply put, time plus with normalized stages to 100 works best for 3gun. Why re-invent the wheel?
jj
With normalizing you still have the "problem" of any screw-up on a short stage being much more costly than the same screw-up would be on a long stage. Shoot a no-shoot, or have a gun malfunction, or some other minor screw-up on a 20s stage and you're down 20-30 points, but have the same screw-up on a 4 min stage and you're down 2-3%. To me it feels wrong that the short stages have a higher probability of deciding the match than the long stages..
But once again, if stages are designed with this in mind, it's not really an issue.
Though to be honest, I dont really care much what scoring system a certain match uses... If the match is good and I can fit it into my schedule I'll come and shoot
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Vogel by .3455
Jerry by .4855
So in time that equals 0.1 seconds roughly... over 20 stages...
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Assigning stages points, be it Hormer 100,125, 150 or simply 100 points per stage balances out short courses and long courses. Straight time plus can allow a really good long range shooter to win a match by smoking the long shots and walking through the rest. Making each stage worth 100 points means you have to be all around good to win.
The problem with just using 100 points for all stages is that the short ones (usually the one gun stages) get way more important than the long ones. A small screw-up on a 20s stage easily cost you the match, while struggling on a long stage wont hurt you as bad. Using 100/125/150 somewhat alleviates that problem. It's not perfect, but still better than using 100 across the board.
Time-plus scoring with 100/125/150p stages FTW!
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http://www.marblearms.com/rearSights.html
The Marble rear sight is very similar to the 10/22 one, but is windage adjustable which makes it a little easier to get the windage right.
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I dont care for the new format as much, and talked about this with the 3GN crew at the Ozarks match.
I prefer a WHOLE BUNCH of match coverage and getting to see EVERY matchup in the shootoff events. That said - I fully understand - 3GN is not a show for 3gunners to watch. It is a show that is trying to appeal to all people.... and will raise interest in the sport from those not already involved in it.
Whatever format they do - we have to remember that it doesn't need to appeal to existing 3gunners.... it needs to appeal to the shooting masses.
I am super glad they are producing the show, my hats off to the crew. It does nothing but bring in sponsors, and raises awareness so the sport can grow.
I'll watch a 3gun show no matter what they do in the show, over anything else on TV.
But I think therein lies one of their problems. The show is a show for 3-gunners, even if it doesnt try to be. I've shown it to 3-gunners, shooters and non-shooters, pretty much everyone except the 3-gunners (sadly enough) prefer Top Shot. People want to see action and get an understanding of how well someone did on a stage. Fragments of stages, long interviews, pro-tips might be interesting to us, but the non-initiated dont really care and no matter what their intentions are, my impression is still that 3GN is made by 3-gunners for 3-gunners.
Commentaries to the shooters as they navigating through a stage, maybe slow motion shots of cool/nice moves or shots, like in other sports might be cool. Showing a pro running a stage with a ticking clock in the corner, with split times, as well as penalties, would make it easier for "regular" people to understand what's going on. Showing some of the top shooters in a split screen format as they tackle a stage differently and see where they lose, or make up, time is another thing that might work.
Watching amateurs shoot is a waste of precious air time, if the goal is to appeal to the masses. No one except other amateur 3-gunners and maybe his buddies will find that interesting, to me, watching another amateur shoot is about as much fun as it would be watching Daniel H playing golf on ESPN...
Don't get me wrong, I love having a show about 3-gunning on air, but if the idea is to appeal to the masses I think the format and content need to be tweaked a bit.
Last year when I was going to attend the shoot-off I followed the points, this year when I know I wont, I dont.
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I just talked to Chris and the rest of our squad and we unanimously decided that we should give Chris a stage DQ on stage 9. The stats people will be giving him zero points for stage 9. If we ever get scores you will see that this horrible wrong was righted and we are all good honest people.
Wasnt ap3 in your squad?
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The sport is me vs. You. Not me vs. You and your friends. Clearly unsportsmen like conduct. Just because the rest of the city is involved in a riot, that doesnt mean I am going to go pick out a new TV to carry out of Wally World. I guess some people just know the difference between right and wrong
Some matches allow it, some discourage it and in some it's a DQ. It's only right or wrong depending on how the rules are written.
I dont really care which one it is, as long as the rules are enforced equally for all shooters.
If coaching was deemed to be ok for this match, I dont really see a problem doing it, just like no one would complain about coaching at Iron Man. However, do it at SMM3G for example, and you're in trouble...
Sometimes it would be nice to have one rule book
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Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49)....
Though it would have been a DQ-able offense (assuming that the coach is a shooter) in most matches, there's nothing explicitly in the rules for _this_ match against it.
Our RO's coached us on several stages. Coaching is only dissallowed in the USPSA rule book. Yet another reason why Outlaw is more popular.
I forgot to add that I did really enjoy the orange flagging in the trees on the shotgun plates in the woods. Much better and easier to find than previous years. We also had RO's that called hits on plates that spun sideways and or all the way around backwards.
I dont really care what the ROs do, since I assume they're consistent across all shooters, but coaching by other shooters is definitely not allowed in all outlaw matches.
It seemed to be ok in this match though.
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Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49)....
Though it would have been a DQ-able offense (assuming that the coach is a shooter) in most matches, there's nothing explicitly in the rules for _this_ match against it.
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Just my .02 , It's great the sponser $$ they bring , but I'd MUCH rather see the top shooters/along with a few avg.shooters , shooting some actual stages . The fact that Rustin made in was nice to see , but other than that , it's just a time delay/filler until the final scores.
I really liked the random drawing for the prize , I was in the tent helping, if you coulda seen the guys who were drawn early winning some stuff they likley would NEVER have a chance at ,would probably draw more new shooters than any ad campain or TV show.
Still need a good way to recognise the top shooters , but many of the top guys don't need or want the rifles that most others only dream of. Kinda like the difference between me getting $5.00 for the candy store or my 3 year old Grand Daughter . Sure it's nice for me , but for her it's beyond anything she thought possible.
The problem with shooting "real" stages is that its really hard to design good stages that are fast to reset and have good spectator value.
I'm sure the current format can be tweaked some, but probably not much.
I also agree that having one slot (or maybe even two?) in the shoot-off filled by random drawing amongst the shooters that are watching the shoot-off could be one way to draw more spectators. Though, its not really fair to the shooter(s) that just missed the shoot-off because the spot was used for random drawing instead...
I still think that the prizes should be distributed by place of finish though. It awards the skilled shooters that spend a lot of time and money to get good, after all, it is a competition. If we need to use raffles with nice rifles to lure new shooters to the sport we really need to take a step back and look at how to make the sport and matches more interesting...
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Used to shoot a lot of PPC and it still has a strong and growing following in Europe, where you dont have to be LE to shoot. I know that a bunch of them would love to come here and compete, if they were allowed, and I'm sure there are quite a few non-LE US shooters that would enjoy shooting PPC as well.
However, NRA has decided that it's better to keep it LE-only and slowly let it die, rather than to allow civilians to compete and maybe even make the sport grow...
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DMW lever . . . no need to drill & tap.
Lower profile so less of a chance to snag when you pull it out of the bag or case.
lower cost can be installed with out modifacation to the OEM bolt release (allows for swaping and no going back to the shop to drill & tap.)
Just my opinion.
+1
I've used mine for a couple of years now through quite a few matches with no issues.
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More likely bump fire.
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I would say the prize table easily approached $400k, that would average out to everyone getting about $100 of product, knowing that the vast majority got more than that, I feel confident around there if not more, I was a tad busy to try to add it up, it was enough work dibbying it out
There were 4000 competitors at the match?
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Is the AMU really switching to LTD?
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Shhhh! I like it that most of the competition uses cheap ass walmart bulk ammo.
We had 7 or 8 Benelli's on our squad. All ran 100% from what I witnessed. There was a Browning(?) of some kind on our squad that had a bunch of issues.
I have quite a few thousand Walmart Federals though my M2 with exactly two malfunctions, both on the same stage and due to a weak mag spring...
So I'll keep using them, you'll kick my ass anyway
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I thought with present day technology, isn't there some way they could've done this through the website. Simple, just log in and vote! ?
Sent via Taptalk for iPhone.
That would definitely make it easier and probably increase participation, though I'm pretty sure it would require a change of the bylaws first.
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Guess there's no point in bringing those 40/48/60 rounds mags for tactical
5.3.4.6 Magazine capable of holding no more than 30 rounds inserted at any time.
WTF? Isn't surefire a HUGE 3 Gun Nation sponsor? The 60's should be mandatory!!! I hope I don't accidentally load my Pmags to 31 and get bumped to Open.
Doesnt matter if you throw 31 in there or not... As the rule is written you cant use mags that hold more than 30 rounds period ("capable of.."), so double-check that you cant get 31 into those Pmags
Honestly, I kinda like it (though maybe we should move this to another thread, since I suspect the discussion will get heated)
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Guess there's no point in bringing those 40/48/60 rounds mags for tactical
5.3.4.6 Magazine capable of holding no more than 30 rounds inserted at any time.
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Love those Spuhr mounts.
The downside is that (AFAIK) there aren't really any throw levers that will fit.
Its a darn fine and sturdy mount though, I love mine
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V-tac Horse jump
Priceless!
And I'm half American Mongrel And 1/2 Swedish from my mothers side, Magnuson !
Good to know, you have 3 gun in the home land!
3-gun/multigun as we know it will never happen there though, unfortunately. What they have is the less interesting IPSC version with one gun / stage.
Its a step in the right direction though
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I had external locks on my bags and on the hard cases which contained gun and ammo which were the TSA approved dual key type. Was later told that the gun case ones should have been "my key only" but it didn't bother anyone.
Until something happens... at least you know for next time
Of the six stateside check ins, one checking clerk wanted the gun box opened before she issued the label, one taped the label to the outside of the gun case and the other four told me to just to leave it loose in my luggage bag. (If the label has any relevence, then attaching it to the gunbox seems the most sensible approach.)
You should NOT show the unloaded gun to the ticketing agent. You declare that its unloaded by signing the orange label. The label then goes into the case if its a rifle case or into the suitcase if you have a pistol case inside the suitcase. Attaching it to the gun case might make sense, but I'd rather not dig it out of the suitcase since its not a requirement.
I had a ticketing agent in Vegas refusing to give me a label until without showing her that my AR15 really was unloaded. I tried telling her that I wasn't too interested in waving an AR around at a crowded airport...2 minutes later it was all resolved when her manager showed up and gave me the label....
As to TSA I was advised on the first leg to hang around for 10 minutes after my bags go in in case they needed to talk to me which I did. On the first leg (from LAX) I assumed that TSA would inspect the gun so left the padlocks unfastened.
Yeah, dont do that... an unlocked gun case can be confiscated (and most likely will be if they suspect/figure out whats in it.)
They opened all bags and swabbed them inside. They presumably could search them at their discretion. You could watch this happening if you wanted. There TSA keys wouldn't open my lock - turned out the one they needed was broken and they were going to head off somewhere to get another key but I just gave them my combination. Saw them clip someones lock who didn't have a TSA lock and didn't hang around.
Gun cases/suitcases with guns should be marked as such in the system when you check in and TSA has to make a reasonable effort to find the owner before breaking into anything that contains a gun, they cant just break into it like they can with other locked suitcases.
Seems like your experiences pretty much equal mine, some slight differences in procedures at various airports, but in general it's not really a big hassle.
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I just use the V-tac adapter.
Me too.
What are your thoughts on 3 Gun Nation?
in Multi-gun Rules / Stage Design / Match Administration
Posted
+1
And this might not necessarily delay things, since the shoot-off usually takes 45 mins to an hour the random drawing shoot-off could take place while waiting for the scores to get posted/verified...