Fireant

But it is not consistent. It goes against what the rule book says. This is not a full diameter hit, so the impeneterable part does not come into play. The rules are specific here. This teaching from the new RO class does not seem to follow the rule book. Nowhere does it say or even imply that the scoring area is not available. You just have to get a penalty to get to it. No major reward there. I would also have to argue for that D hit also. And logic has nothing to do with it. We go by the rule book here right?

Fine then I call more Bullbutter

I have to call more BS here again. You are stopping too soon in the reading of 9.1.5. They are inpeneterable IF the bullet strikes wholly in the SCORING area. No need for interpretation period. That is very clear. NOWHERE in the rule book says that you are to treat a scoring zone as not there unless it is painted to indicate hardcover. 9.1.5 gives the specific times when the NS is impeneterable and the example we are discussing is not one of them. Troy, I hope this is not he last you have to say about it, because the (unneeded) interpretation is not correct based on the rules. We really need to get this correct. While many are wondering what difference one point makes, well in a major match it could decide the difference between 1st in your class and second.

Agreed that NS are not scoring targets. However, the target behind it IS. And the bullet is touching the scoring line on this target, is it not? No it is not touching it because from the perf on top of the one below is impenetrable and therefore the bullet can not touch it. Therefore, the only scoring surface the bullet touches is the C. I can see both sides of this topic and I went over it at length with my NROI to get my mind around it. In the end I knew what I "thought" was not the way the rule had been interpreted... Here's how I finally reconciled it for myself... ymmv... I looked at the NS as a piece of steel covering the entire A scoring area... this would prevent a bullet from ever reaching the perf underneath as the bullet would shear at the edge of the metal... Now I agree this needs to be set down in writing and I would bet that is in the works now. This is one of those that I feel both sides have a point, but the NROI and the board are going to have the last word, and like it or not, I think they are going to rule as taught in the new level 1 RO class. The picture above was taken from the L1 RO book. Was there a need to change this rule from what has been accepted for however long...? I don't know... I never heard the rational for the change. Like I said, I see both sides to this issue. What I'm leaning toward, and I know this will be an unpopular statement, but I think this has been scored wrong from the beginning. If the target is covered you can't hit it. If you looked at the perf and a non scoring impenetrable line, this interpretation becomes stronger... at least it does for me. JT But the rule book says the scoring area only is impeneterable with a full diameter hit. The rule book also says that a partial hit will continue on to score or recieve the penalty behind it. Does it not? Why are people changing their minds when presented things that go against the written rule book? Even if you wanted to say the scoring part of the NS was steel and would shear off the bullet, what was left would touch the scoring perf of the Azone since by the rules a metal target does not have a non scoring boarder.

here is 9.5.3 9.5.3 If a bullet diameter touches the scoring area of both a scoring target and a no-shoot, it will earn the score and incur the penalty. How does this rule back up what you are saying? When I look at this situation I see the following rules applying: 9.1.5 Impenetrable – The scoring area of USPSA scoring targets and noshoots is deemed to be impenetrable: 9.1.5.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to strike the scoring area of another paper target, the hit on the subsequent paper target will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be. 9.1.5.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure. The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored 9.1.5.3 If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or metal target, and continues on to strike the scoring area of another paper target, the hit on the subsequent paper target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be. 9.1.5.4 If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or metal target, and continues on to strike down or hit the scoring area of another metal target, the subsequent metal target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be. 9.5.2 If the bullet diameter of a hit on a scoring target touches the scoring line between two scoring areas, or the line between the non-scoring border and a scoring area, or if it crosses multiple scoring areas, it will be scored the higher value. 9.5.3 If a bullet diameter touches the scoring area of both a scoring target and a no-shoot, it will earn the score and incur the penalty. This is not a full diameter hit, so the bullet continues on to score behind it, not just the shaved off part the whole diameter. It says so in the rule. Only a full diameter hit is impeneterable. Then I see a hit in the A zone of the scoring target behind it. So the call is an Alpha/NS. Plain and simple. No rule declares that the a zone is nonexsistent, or has dissapeared or anything else. There are the RULES supporting the alpha. Show me the RULES showing that it's a Charlie. Not someone said so, but a ruling based on the actual rules.

Site the rule. ? 9.1.5 says it's scoring zone is covered by an impenetrable target. The picture above witht the NS not stapled to the underlying target is poor stage setup. Under your definition, even placing black tape on the target wouldn't keep it from being scored as an A unless the black tape was far enough into the C zone that no bullet diameter could touch both scoring lines. You have to read all of 9.1.5 not just the beginning: 9.1.5 Impenetrable – The scoring area of USPSA scoring targets and noshoots is deemed to be impenetrable: 9.1.5.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to strike the scoring area of another paper target, the hit on the subsequent paper target will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be. 9.1.5.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure. The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored 9.1.5.3 If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or metal target, and continues on to strike the scoring area of another paper target, the hit on the subsequent paper target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be. 9.1.5.4 If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or metal target, and continues on to strike down or hit the scoring area of another metal target, the subsequent metal target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be. Don't read into the rules, just read the written word.

It is so hard because the rule book does not say anything about painting targets white to use as a no shoot. Please site that rule please. We have a target. One face is used as a +scoring target and the other is used as a -score or penalty. The rule book talks about painting hard cover, but not what you are refering to. We are talking USPSA here right? I don't know what is so hard to understand

You would think so wouldn't you. But many here want to say that edge can't be hit when it can be.

Oh, really. Well, please show me the rule that says the azone is no longer there. I think you are reading things into the rule that are not there. I can show a rule that spells out my reasoning for the alpha. Please show me yours, and the impenetrable target rule is only for a full diameter hit, so that can not be it.

Nope, I'm sorry, but your 3 NS/C all touch the perf on the Azone behind it. Making them NS/A It is still there unless you have painted it with hard cover. It did not just dissappear. Remember the rule book says that only a full diameter hit in the SCORING zone is impenettrable and that partial hits can continue on to score or get penalties.

That is exactly what you have to do to make the area dissapear. Otherwise it is still there and the entire point of this question. We can not just say to follow logic and poof the azone no longer is there. That is what some people are trying to say. If you want it gone follow the rule book and paint some hard cover on it. Otherwise pony up to the fact that it can and should be scored an alpha.

Jim, The intent of the stage designer has nothing to do with it. The intent stuff is for another game. In this game we go by the written rules and the written stage briefing. That is why they are there. If you are shooting based on intent you may not be shooting USPSA. Like you I hope the ruling is clear and based on the rules we currently have.

I didn't know what else to call it when a small group gets together and decides how they will make the call ahead of time. But even if Amadon rules that it is a Charlie, I want it backed up by a clear rule. Not just an interpretation. The rules should not need an interpretation. Nowhere in the rule book do I see anything to back up a ruling that the azone or the perf is nonexistent. You might want it to be, but show me the rule number. I want it to be an Alpha and I can show where the rule will allow this and physically show that it is possible. Patiently waiting for the ruling.

Actually, by the rules in place now, it can be called a C. I've answered and so has George. I said I'd get in touch with John and I will. It's a matter of interpretation, not how the rule reads, IMO. Sometimes rules need interpretation, and that's John's job. We (the instructor corps) merely needed to come to some agreement so that we teach the same thing. As you can see on this thread alone, not everyone agrees on how it is scored, but the rules do support the call of C if the perfs are aligned perfectly. Here's George Jone's reply from earlier: This scenario was recently discussed by the instructors. In the scenario described, the hit on the left side of the NS head can only be scored a C. The A zone which is under the scoring area of the NS (which includes the NS perfs) is not available for the simple reason that (if the perfs are correctly aligned) as soon as the bullet touches the perf of the NS that part of the bullet cannot continue to strike the underlying A perf. The same rule would apply for a hit down on the long side of the NS. It could not score the underlying D. The final opinion of the instructors was that the portion of a scoring target which underlies a no-shoot (including the NS perfs) for all practical purposes simply does not exist. Rule 9.5.2 applies to a scoring target (a single target) and it's individual scoring zones. It has nothing to do with an overlying NS. Rule 9.5.3 does not support scoring the underlying A. HTH I'm sorry, but I still have not seen a rule stating that the underlying targets scoring area dissapears(magically or otherwise). If it is not a full diameter hit the bullet does continue on and touch the perf that is still there. In IMA's picture, by your ruling that a zone does not exsist. But I sure do see a hole there that did not go through a NS. The written rule leaves room for either call. If it is that gray, it should be rewritten not just interpreted one way over the other. Why should one view trump the other? Just because one person says so? I don't think so. Why is a NS perf any different from a shoot targets perf? Are they not both refered to equally in the rules? The way I read it they are.

By the rules we have in place now it can not be called a c, it has to be an alpha. Even if Amadon says it's a Charlie, there is no rule backing that up. A couple of guys in a back room deciding that is how they want it scored reminds me of another game that we strive not to be like. Make a ruling based on the written rules, if it is not what the rule writers wanted, well tough. In the next rewrite it can be changed. That is why we have those processes in place.

Yes it can. Nothing in the rules states that the a zone has magically dissappeared. The perfs are still there and the bullet can touch them, so you get the higher score.

Amen, brother Flex

IMA, Only a full diameter hit is impeneterable, if the scoring perf is there, the a zone is there the correct score is an alpha, and a NS.

You keep getting stuck on thinking the area covered up does not exsist. Please refer me to that rule.

Showing or not it is there. What if that target was parallel to the back berm and I run up to the 179.5 degree line and blast a shot that does not crease the white side of that NS, but does hit the perf of the A zone it covers? That would also be an alpha. Just because it is covered does not mean it does not exist.

That's how I read it also.

Since the scoring part is the only part that is inpenetrable, the shaved half of the bullet would touch he scoring perf, right? Just because the NS is there does not make it impossible to shoot it, just very hard.

OK, I buy the impenetrable part, but wouldn't the bullet still touch the scoring perf of the shoot target. The scoring zone is still there, it didn't just dissapear.

OK here is the situation: say a shooter shoots a target with a NS on it like we just had at the O/L10 nationals. The shooter clips the top of the NS and it does touch the perf. No questions there. it is scored an alpha. Now lets say the shooter clips the left side of the head of the NS. The bullet diameter is evenly split on the left and right of the perf. of the NS. Is this an alpha or a charlie? The perf lines are close to being lined up (the head perf. of the NS with the A zone perf. of the shoot)

Funny, I'm the exact same way. That's why when my name was at #7 at the end of the first day of the open nationals I did a print screen and saved it to a word doc. I have to take small steps you know.