Rangerdug
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Posts posted by Rangerdug
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I have been shooting for over 2 1/2 years. I am fully aware of who started and why they did. I have no issues with gaming and or Vogel. My issues are not with the rules, but application of the rules. In that the micromanagement of a stage. I have issue with the culture that it has created. As I have stated before a Hall Monitor sect, honestly they are only missing road guard belts(the red hats are cute). I have issue with failure to right, and the subjective nature it entails. I have issue with the fact you can walk the stage prior, but damn if you ghost gun it. I appreciate the rules on cover, but hate again the subjective application. I disagree with rule on dropping magazines, but that is a tactical debate for a later date.Ranger, just out of curiosity, how many matches do you have under your belt?
While the IDPA premise is tactical/practical, it just another shooting game, invented by one of the greatest IPSC shooters ever, Bill Wilson, and his IPSC homies from back in the day, Sayle, Rauch, Vickers, Hackathorn. Very, very few shooters use their actual carry/duty guns, run full house ammo, or draw from an IWB holster under a normal concealment garment because it is a game and everyone takes the rules to the edge, like Bob Vogel. He is not a gamer, rather just a guy who knows the edge of rules and plays by that. Fully tricked out G34 with ammo just above the power floor, spring loaded mylar vest, etc.These guys also happen to be the top shooters. But it is not training or tactics, and even the rules don't always make sense because they don't have to, they are just opposite/different to USPSA so that IDPA is a new game.
Again I am not against IDPA, I shoot it and I will keep shooting it. I don't like the current organization of IDPA.
It must be stated not all IDPA clubs are bad. The clubs in N.C. were outstanding based on the members and their backgrounds they ran outstanding matches. Local not so much.
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It is a sport involving shooting, and at present the only one that has a tactical aspect to it. Honestly it is very similar to drills we run at work. It does stress accuracy over time. So yes, I do support it. However, as I stated there is a lot that I do have issue with.Rangerdug, if you don't like a game's rules and have no way to change them, you can always vote with your feet. I suspect there is something about IDPA you like. You wouldn't be so passionate if there wasn't something that kept you coming back.
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You DQ'd, however, it is part of the game and shooting. You did have good muzzle awareness. I guarantee you learned something and won't do it again, in that a good lesson. By the way great hat, thank you for the support.First time I have ever had this happen. I went for a mandatory rifle reload and squeezed off a round before releasing the mag. I was baffled by this because I feel I'm very safety conscience. A close inspection of video shows that it looks like my finger slipped off the mag release after I removed my hand from the handgaurd.
I'm curious to hear if someone else has a different opinion of what I'm seeing.
I'm also curious if you think this should be a DQ or not. There was some debate. The round went in a safe direction and I think the only argument is that the round went off "during a reload. When does a reload start?
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The average shot in a given match is 5-10 yards, with occasional 15-25yrd. There is little skill in these 5-10 yard pistol shots. A dynamic 25 yard shot is not any easier with a carbine(Trust me a moving 25m shot with an MP5 is not a high percentage)If the current avg target distance has been designed to measure points/second for handguns, I don't see how the same avg target distance will also be good to measure points/second for rifles.
I am sure no one will complain at the beginning, but very soon rifle shooters will get bored with the close distance because the skill spread is too small once people master the basic gun handling part. To truly reflect the skill spread of PCC shooters, the avg target distance has to go up. I truly don't see another way around this.
Honestly the thing that most people forget is the issue of mobility. The PCC shooter will handicapped by the ports and barriers. Moving a 16in carbine around barrier will require more time in and out of position. Not to mention those positions we are forced to contort in are hard enough with a 5in pistol, with a PCC it will be a whole new challenge. Also mentioned before the art of shooting a carbine with weak hand in a stationary environment is humbling enough, add a timed event will be entertaining.
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How will the introduction of PCC negatively change any of that. Shooters bring a gun and shoot with them. Open hasn't ruined the sport. People still shoot other divisions. PPC are no different.
Big Sarge, what is your point? I did not state that I have been shooting PCC for years. On a challenge from a veteran shooter in the club, I have shot it, and absolutely loved it. Our local match has allowed shooters to shoot them.
Agreed. I also find it odd he has been shooting PCC for years in Uspsa but doesn't know the difference between class and division.
So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid.What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters.
The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches.
Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate.
Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable.
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Very "adult" of you.
To imply that no one within the sport would ever stoop so low as worry about their overall score, or base a decision solely on that. How many of flaunt your classification on your profile here? Some would argue that is Petty and a display of insecurity.
The safety debate... As you mentioned USPSA already has rifle related rules. So it is Dogmatic(big word... might want to google it) to say carbines are unsafe. Or to suggest that USPSA can't regulate the "Division"(for you Big Sarge).
The over crowding issue. It is ridiculous to state we can't manage new shooters to the sport. All matches have a number of shooter they can accommodate. A PPC division would no more effect then they do now. If matches are getting overcrowded that is a good reflection of the sport. The issue becomes a supply and demand problem. We need more matches.
Hypothetically, to introduce the provisional division, what does it hurt? To the haters it is nothing more then a flash in a pan and goes the way of the dodo( like the old tactical division, IPSC days). If it is so popular that we need separate matches, isn't that again, good for the sport.
The major flaw with overcrowded argument is we need new shooters more then we need those who have been here since the sport started. They are the future of the sport. They bring new ideas and new blood to sport. They also bring money to the sport. If not we will follow the direction of PPC and now IDPA.
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I've already voiced my concern on the matter so I'm not going to keep repeating it. But I did want to comment on what you said.
The fact is that many clubs ARE at capacity in our area, Doug. Your match at WP is always full within minutes of online registration opening and I know how much members of the club bitch that they can't get in.
CGC and Bristlecone both fill up and turn away shooters also.
I don't think you shoot Aurora that much but these matches are brutal with squad size when the weather is good.
I'm not saying it's like this everywhere in the country but it's an issue in our area.
The issue at WP was a result of the "Goldilocks effect" certain individuals were crying about the matches going too late. Then others crying they weren't being catered too enough. Others would complain they couldn't sign up the day of the match, even though they had two weeks to. The staff repeatedly warned people to watch what they were wishing for, in the end they ruined it for everyone. It still doesn't change the fact we need more matches. You being a member of WP you want more matches, then you need to ask for more matches. Be the squeaky gate. The owner will feel pressured to act.
These gentlemen agreements between matches, are silly for the simple fact either your match offers good competition or it doesn't. If you can't get into one go to the other or others.
That should be the argument, not the introduction of PCCs. Love you Dom
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"If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin" -George Weiner
Sure you could cheat.That is where it get crazy though especially in the Glocks. Technically, if you could replace the slide of the with an aftermarket slide, and aftermarket barrel and then what. Especially when it comes to the Glocks. The Glock 34,35,17,17L, and 22 all use the same frame. Outside of the long slides they all use the same slides. The barrels are the deciding factor(I know barrel cuts in the slide are different). My point is you could cheat the system could you not? Staying completely in the rules
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Big Sarge, what is your point? I did not state that I have been shooting PCC for years. On a challenge from a veteran shooter in the club, I have shot it, and absolutely loved it. Our local match has allowed shooters to shoot them.
Agreed. I also find it odd he has been shooting PCC for years in Uspsa but doesn't know the difference between class and division.
So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid.What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters.
The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches.
Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate.
Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable.
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Very "adult" of you.
To imply that no one within the sport would ever stoop so low as worry about their overall score, or base a decision solely on that. How many of you flaunt your classification on your profile here? Some would argue that is Petty and a display of insecurity.
The safety debate... As you mentioned USPSA already has rifle related rules. So it is Dogmatic(big word... might want to google it) to say carbines are unsafe. Or to suggest that USPSA can't regulate the "Division"(for you Big Sarge).
The over crowding issue. It is ridiculous to state we can't manage new shooters to the sport. All matches have a number of shooter they can accommodate. A PPC division would no more effect then they do now. If matches are getting overcrowded that is a good reflection of the sport. The issue becomes a supply and demand problem. We need more matches.
Hypothetically, to introduce the provisional division, what does it hurt? To the haters it is nothing more then a flash in a pan and goes the way of the dodo( like the old tactical division, IPSC days). If it is so popular that we need separate matches, isn't that again, good for the sport.
The major flaw with overcrowded argument is we need new shooters more then we need those who have been here since the sport started. They are the future of the sport. They bring new ideas and new blood to sport. They also bring money to the sport. If not we will follow the direction of PPC and now IDPA.
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According to the production rule you can modify the internals... That would mean you could change ejector. Though I have never had an issue keeping the .40 ejector in both G35 or G22 and running 9MM. I am confused however, I don't know what is still being debated. We have stated the rules... My only point was that Glock using aftermarket parts you easily could make a Frankenglock that would or could pass the rules of production. Now, this is only hypothetical, I am not in the lab cooking one up. I love my Glocks, when I first started shooting USPSA, I ignorantly shot production with a 35 and a conversion barrel. I was never questioned on type, only caliber. So this discussion is quite educational. It has made me go back to the rule book myself.
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You planning on finishing the thought? In what way, other then what has been already mentioned different? The barrel diameter is different but we already addressed that? What else? Oh we almost forgot one says 34 and 9mm, the other says 35 and .40.
Sorry but a 34 and 35 slide are NOT the same.The Glock 34,35,17,17L, and 22 all use the same frame. Outside of the long slides they all use the same slides.
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Thanks for the education... Gamers got to Game;) Based on that information buy a 34... then pimp that baby out with everything already mentioned
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If they were 9mm I would be ordering them right now. I am disappointed that as much as I am in NC, I didn't know that place existed. Thanks for the heads up I will definitely be stopping in there the next time through.For anybody who can't wait (like me) there are still 3 on the shelf at PDHSC, including a 5.4.
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That is where it get crazy though especially in the Glocks. Technically, if you could replace the slide of the with an aftermarket slide, and aftermarket barrel and then what. Especially when it comes to the Glocks. The Glock 34,35,17,17L, and 22 all use the same frame. Outside of the long slides they all use the same slides. The barrels are the deciding factor(I know barrel cuts in the slide are different). My point is you could cheat the system could you not? Staying completely in the rules
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Because, I am learning too. Why would it not be legal?
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I truly appreciate the fact you read the complete post. However, I am disappointed that you were unable to discern my point. Since you asked the question, I feel obligated to respond. As to my feeling on people who may have a differing views. If you're opinion is based within the context of the terms you highlighted. I unequivocally stand behind the words that were used, especially in the context they were used. If these adjectives have offend you, they have accurately hit their mark.
So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid.What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters.
The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches.
Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate.
Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable.
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Very "adult" of you.
If you find issue with my overall statement, then please offer a more intelligent rebuttal. Try to keep it in the issue of PCC. Explain how I am wrong.
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Since no one has said it, G35 gen 3, with KKM 9mm conversion barrel. 3.5 connector. SS guide rod(titanium is better). You will need better sights.
The advantage is, if want to move to a different class change the barrel and magazines and you are shooting limited major. This works for the G22 too.
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What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters.
The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches.
Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate.
Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable.
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I can't say, I know the process that coated bullets are made; However, I seen this phenomenon occur with regularity with frangible ammunition. I would imagine that during the manufacturing process they are not able to balance the projectile.What causes flyers? Specifically in a coated bullet. I know in the past if I had a lot of weird hits with plated bullets my crimp was probably way off. But is it the same deal with moly/coated bullets?
Example, shooting 30 rounds at 10 yards, slow fire, single action. My group will be 2-3" and then I'll have an uncalled hit like 4" away randomly.
If you want/need specifics of my load to help diagnose it I can share, but more interested in the concept of what causes flyers. Crimp? Bullet manufacture qa/qc? Low powder charge? Torn coating?....??
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I can say honestly I absolutely hated the P226, it and it's terrible double action trigger. It was a fitting pistol for SEALs( Army joke) That was until we recieved a P226 SAO Legion at the club. I am absolutely crazy about the gun. So much in fact it changed my search for a Max Michel .40 1911 to it. So what did Sig do right? First is the trigger, the slop common to the DA P226, is gone. In fact there is very little slack in the trigger at all. More or Most importantly it is Single Action. Also, out of the box it comes with Sig's flat trigger. Secondly as a lefty, I have always hated the ergonomic features on all P series pistols, but the ambidextrous features and locations are a nice change. Lastly, is the grip... the legions series have the best grip of any stock pistol. It also has a great look to it.
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Congratulations on shooting your first match. I have to compliment you on your perfect use of the word arbitrary. Obviously since you have read the rules and now shot "a" match you are at the pinnacle of understanding. I will try to come up to your level.You got it right Rangerdug and you immediately proved my point. All the successful shooting games have strong points. All of them have weak points. I have actually shot a lot of them and now I have shot IDPA. It is a different game.
Every shooting game ever invented is first and foremost a game. All games have rules. Except for safety all of the rules are arbitrary. Just have fun within the rules. If you don't like the rules don't shoot the game.
As you know IDPA is an association. In that definition a collection of relatively like minded shooters. I think we all can agree on the premise of IDPA, and for that reason why we shoot it. As mentioned before, that association is supposed to represent the shooters of said organization and with that an inherent responsibility to continue to evolve the association, and ultimately the sport.
In the eyes of many that is not happening, partly because of the arbitrary rules you eluded to. That the rules themselves have become the sole focus rather than the game itself. Now, keep your panties on, I am not an anarchist... We need rules, and the boundaries they establish. But they must enhance the sport itself, not strangle it. That is where the frustration with the sport comes from, and where this Thread started with.
Now applying the logic you have suggested, we disgruntled shooters have two choices. Either bend over and take it, or quit. I don't think that works well for most of us.
Make no mistake, IDPA is fun, but no where near what it could be. As you eluded to it is a different challenge from USPSA. Go to the USPSA forum, there is nothing like this there. I think there is one guy crying about the fact he had a squib, and zeroed a stage; Whaaaa!
As long as we are active participants we do have a responsibility to advocate to improve the sport until such a point the sport is no longer relevant and that point isn't far off, especially with the growth of these PASS leagues. The association had better pull its head out of its 4th point of contact and listen and legitimately attempt to correct the problems.
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I have shoot an USPSA match with a carbine, it was a lot fun. The idea of a approved class would be great. I am not advocating for a 2-gun event, it would be a good bridge between the multi-gun sports. Not to mention include more military shooters who are not familiar with the pistols.That thread went downhill fast.
I think we would more 3gun shooters especially the ones who hate shotguns
There are 2-gun matches out there that use pistol and rifle. http://peacemakernational.com/events?l=viewEvent&eventID=695
My point is using carbines with-in USPSA format is good for a great sport.
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Thank You
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Where did you get the Legion emblem work done? I would like to get something similar added to my 2011'sWell, 15 months and it arrived today...
10mm awesomeness! Can't wait to put some rounds through it this weekend.
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I would hope they would. From the idea of bringing new people into the sport. I think we would more 3gun shooters especially the ones who hate shotguns
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Confused by the "full Barney" statement. If I am taking in the correct context, that is pretty bold. As I have stated this is used as 10rd warm-up. Dots are a great tool. but unless you are telling me you are consistently holding tight groups on them past 15yd, How are they relevant to this conversation? Now my turn, to be so bold, who would I lean more towards; SGMs Vickers/ McNamara (great shooters in their own right) who were responsible for training the best military shooters in the world, or a recruiter? I could care less if you shoot the Bulls. Do or Don't, it doesn't change the value of it.Dot drills can be a good way to put the fundamentals and ipsc shooting together, I did terrible my first time, after a while though I got better and could move the dots further out. YMMV but I think it's a great drill to use to "get back to the basics" without going full Barney
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Pistol Caliber Carbine Division
in Steel Challenge
Posted
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