Rangerdug
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Did your AD help you right that? The point is that everybody is overthinking this. It is not complicated.Port Arms:
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This is not complicated.
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The best part of these pictures is that not only are they NOT what is described by port arms or low ready in the PCC commentary, but they aren't the port arms or low ready used commonly in 3-Gun/Multigun matches.
Wherein lies the problem.
These terms ('low ready" and "port arms") mean different things to different people. As such, they aren't workable unless they are specified in a glossary or something similar.
Personally (and I wrote this to Troy and my AD as an opinion/suggestion) I think PCC should have a specific, singular default start position, just like we have for handguns. That way, WSB can write whatever else they like, but if they don't, we don't have a whole range of things people might do.
My personal preference is "Standing upright, stock touching belt, both hands on gun, muzzle pointed downrange."
...as this is very similar to the default handgun position.
(I note that the pictures of "port arms" shown are nicely close to breaking the 180, and it is highly likely that people using it will break the 180 either getting into port arms in the first place, or moving from it after the start signal.)
Listening to all ignorance is simply getting old. We are almost to IDPA retardation when it comes to this.
You have tools talking about squading all PCC shooters, as if they are Lepers. So they can get their heads around it. ITS a gun just like the pistols we have been shooting. Point at Target shoot, don't break the 180, Done!!!
Then there is you talking about a "singular default position".
Do we get as stupid when comes to hands naturally at your side, or hands on head. Everybody does it their own way and the matches seem to run pretty smooth.
Applying KISS "Keep It Simple Stupid Principle" will get us along way. Or we can reinvent the wheel just because we like the pain.
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This is not complicated.
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Don't overthink it! Yes you shoot one from your dominant (strong) side. And one from your non dominant (weak) side. Yes you can shoot it shouldered with one hand. It ain't as easy as you would think. Regardless moving any gun from strong to weak requires two hands.It will be good to have some rules from HQ, so we aren't making it up as we go along.
Many good ideas here, but even the classifiers that are being shot now are all being done differently. I was at a match where there was a freestyle/strong hand, freestyle/weak hand. I have no idea how it was shot. Was the strong/weak hand done with only one hand on the rifle? Was it done by moving the rifle to the weak hand shoulder and still used both hands? I have no idea.
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That's covered in Cowboy ActionJust a reminder, every Winchester 1892 ever made was a PCC. The Winchester 1873 became a PCC when Colt started chambering Peacemakers in 44-40.
Isn't as easy as it looks
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PCC are not in their infancy? The term PCC is new. SMG's have been around since shortly after WWI. MP 40, Thompson, Grease Gun, UZI, MP5, UMP, and many others have been evolving for almost a century. Experience with these systems has been relegated to those who work with them and those who could afford them.
You are forgetting that last sentence about "closing the gap." Technical improvement will help close the gap with pistols.
Don't forget something that is under $1I am not a PCC shooter, but it will be really fascinating to watch gun development if PCC really takes off.
My guess is that if this becomes a seriously competitive division, then M4 based platforms will be replaced by something that:
1) Reloads through the pistol grip (easier reloads and shorter carbine). Perhaps even with a magwell.
2) Something that is gas powered and not blow back (less felt recoil).
3) Perhaps (and I could be very wrong here) something that does not have a stock in line with the bore, but rather an M1 carbine type stock that would allow you to put the optic very close to the bore line to reduce bore offset. However, this may increase felt recoil to the point that this is a non-starter.
4) Comps that actually work for a 9mm (not sure if this is really feasible).
5) Something that comes with 35+ round magazines as standard equipment.
6) Something that reliably locks back on the on an empty mag (nice to have).
7) Something with very ergonomic controls for the bolt release, magazine release, and safety.
8) Something that has lots of barrel length options for the NFA guys.
I know of no PCC that would have all of these attributes.
Some of these things would help PCC close the gap with pistols in some areas.
Or maybe with magic beans or a golden goose... or never misses
That was a low and said in jest, but I am confused how all that, ties into this thread. How "PCC is harder than it looks".
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At my club, we have about 7 regular PCC shooters (huge club). About 5 of those guys have issues with their guns. Probably 3 of them have serious issues.
Part of what is hard about PCC is that the guns themselves are in their infancy in terms of development. It is making PCC look harder than it really is right now, although shooting a carbine on pistol stages presents its own special set of challenges.
And honestly there were not a lot of civilian venues to use them. That leads to ignorance. I don't disagree that guys are having issues with guns, but I put my money that it ain't the guns but the individual using it. Whether they went out and bought the cheapest one they could find, or built one not knowing what they were doing. These serious issues you eluded to are not specific to PCC's especially in USPSA, every match their are always issues with guns. And no type of gun is immune. Someone is cussing at their gun somewhere.
The issue is that shooters who don't have a lot of experience shooting carbines in confined position while moving fast are getting to drink from the fire hose. learning it ain't as easy as they think, and thus why it is great for the sport. If it was easy everyone could do it.
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Don't forget something that is under $1I am not a PCC shooter, but it will be really fascinating to watch gun development if PCC really takes off.
My guess is that if this becomes a seriously competitive division, then M4 based platforms will be replaced by something that:
1) Reloads through the pistol grip (easier reloads and shorter carbine). Perhaps even with a magwell.
2) Something that is gas powered and not blow back (less felt recoil).
3) Perhaps (and I could be very wrong here) something that does not have a stock in line with the bore, but rather an M1 carbine type stock that would allow you to put the optic very close to the bore line to reduce bore offset. However, this may increase felt recoil to the point that this is a non-starter.
4) Comps that actually work for a 9mm (not sure if this is really feasible).
5) Something that comes with 35+ round magazines as standard equipment.
6) Something that reliably locks back on the on an empty mag (nice to have).
7) Something with very ergonomic controls for the bolt release, magazine release, and safety.
8) Something that has lots of barrel length options for the NFA guys.
I know of no PCC that would have all of these attributes.
Some of these things would help PCC close the gap with pistols in some areas.
Or maybe with magic beans or a golden goose... or never misses
That was a low and said in jest, but I am confused how all that, ties into this thread. How "PCC is harder than it looks".
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I lived this statement the last match... Was first in all stages where I had some advantage of shooting stationary; however, the classifiers that required two reloads... 12th!!! It doesn't help being left-handed. I also had a stage where I got drawn in too close to a port and had to burn time getting to a position where I could shoot. All in all what a blast. Absolutely loved it!!!
I would say that on stages with steel, targets past 15 yards and when I get to skip positions, the PCC is faster. On speed shoots, stages with required reloads and open targets inside 15 yards, the pistol is faster.Has everyone's stage times dropped when running a P.C.C.?
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But just think about how many more bullets I can buy with my JP;) and $1800 in your dreams! GUN+SIGHT+MAGAZINES+TAX STAMP= $2,500+[
Compared to: $60+$35(springer)=
They are $30 if you buy 5, just sayin!
On a serious note though I probably have what $1800 invested into the gun. That's but a tiny spec compared to the match fees, gas, hotels, and ammo expenses I will incur this year..
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No kidding... That thing better never jam at that price.
Holy break the bank Batman!
https://www.xproducts.com/9mm-ar-15-drum
Thanks. That could be a disadvantage for choosing that platform for 32 round stages with steel. I was thinking about getting a Colt mag AR since I've been having nothing but problems with my Glock mag AR, but don't like the idea of being limited to a max of 32 round mags.
I used to have a Colt and an RRA that used UZI and Colt mags. I believe 32 is the most and no extensions.For Colt mag 9mm ARs are there any good quality mags available that hold more than 32 rounds or can mag extensions be added to the Metalform or other SMG mags?
Pat
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So Doc, are we talking about 2011's or PCC's;) Now, speaking only about polymer magazines $60 is a lot. Especially for a one trick pony. Knowing that most own a Glock of some form. having magazines that are multiple use and easy to come by is a benefit.Where did you hear that the Mpx can be finicky with ammo? I just ran all my junk ammo in mine that I've loaded like 5 years ago and it ran like a champ. $50 dollars per 30 round mag is expensive? My big sticks on my 2011 cost me 200 and they only hold 29...Oh btw my Mpx made it it 2060ish rounds without being cleaned. It didn't stop working but I had trouble hand ejecting the round when unloading and showing clear. So not bad.
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Shoo you open gun shooter... also paying $35 for a 33 round glock mag + $40 on a TTI Basepad is more cost beneficial
You're right: $35+$40= $75 no value
Compared to: $60+$35(springer)= $95 (Excluding shipping) is an amazing value especially when you try to use them in your 320 or 226 or 229.
Seriously though form competition side, load out I am going to run a 30+ in the gun and 17mags (even a 19mag) on my belt. In the pouches I already have from shooting Glocks. That is advantage to Glock mag guns(JP and Lone Wolff) over the MPX. You know I like the MPX, I just hate SIG and their mags(mainly the price of both. Though I will say I like MPX over MP5 hands down.
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So Doc, are we talking about 2011's or PCC's;) Now, speaking only about polymer magazines $60 is a lot. Especially for a one trick pony. Knowing that most own a Glock of some form. having magazines that are multiple use and easy to come by is a benefit.Where did you hear that the Mpx can be finicky with ammo? I just ran all my junk ammo in mine that I've loaded like 5 years ago and it ran like a champ. $50 dollars per 30 round mag is expensive? My big sticks on my 2011 cost me 200 and they only hold 29...
Oh btw my Mpx made it it 2060ish rounds without being cleaned. It didn't stop working but I had trouble hand ejecting the round when unloading and showing clear. So not bad.
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Springer has the only extensions out there... As for magazines $60 dollars a pop, you're right that is real cheap[emoji1304].mags are cheaper and easier to find than before. extensions for them have been out for a while now. sig even released caliber exchange kits.
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I have and absolutely love my GMR-13. I love the fact that it runs on Glock magazines. The MPX is a great great gun, but mags are not easy to come by. There are no add on for those mags. And only one manufacturer of those mags, and I am not convinced that lancer mags are that great( holding a grudge against their 5.56 mags). As soon Magpul releases their 30rd mags the game is over.
Although thinking about it, a JP would save ne a lot of trouble with mags since I've got plenty of G17 mags on hand. If the JP runs like a top, then It has a definite advantage.Sig MPX. I had an AR in 9mm before this and it sucked in comparison. Recoil was significantly more than .223 because of all the reciprocating mass. I wont go back to a blowback gun.
If I go PPC, this is my #1 choice right now. Sweet ride...
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So after finally getting them... I am so impressed. They are so easy to install. They literally took 5 minutes to install both of them. They literally make my favorite magazines better. Hoping they make a spring for the 33rd mags
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I have the JP, I absolutely love it. I have shot the MPX and it would be my second choice
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I have shot no less then 10,000rds of their 9mm and .40. Everything from their match to the remanufactured stuff and never had as much as a dud with it. Now granted no ammo company is immune to bad lots. I am positive if you had an issue with a lot they would rectify the problem, it helps them identity and recall ammo. To label all Freedom Muntions as bad is silly. Now if you reached out to them and they blew you, then fill free to blog your frustration with them. If you haven't approached them, and given them a chance to fix it, you are just whining.I have shot about 2k of there 115gr no problem and atleast 5k of the 180gr 40 sw no problem
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Skydiving is just as expensive as USPSA... And 3gun is extremely more expensive then USPSA.
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Nothing some medicated Vaseline can't fix.Remember, too, the hole has to have a grease mark to count.
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Seriously, a momentary display of emotion is anything but unsportsmanlike. It's being human, granted we don't all express ourselves the same way and that's perfectly fine.I once flung my earpro across the back of a stage at a state match 4 or 5 years ago when I zeroed my last stage after my pistol ripped the rim off a back of the 5th round, making extracting impossible. I was having a great match and I was winning my class (lol at class wins now
) Did I do it to be a poor sport, no. I was just highly frustrated. Give the guy a few minutes to breath some of us are just wired that way.As long as it doesn't turn into a "Tanner" ( ref: Bad News Bears) type conniption fit. Who cares, are we going to throw out everybody that claps their hands, says a curse word, kicks dirt, or any other displays of frustration because they screwed up? It is a competitive sport, people are going to be competitive. Every now and again we are going to avoidably flub it. Those avoidable mistakes are annoying, and on the same level as stubbing a toe or hitting your thumb with a hammer. Inevitably it leads to a display of frustration. Now most people are not Ned Flanders and that being said have lost our WWJD bracelets years ago, our public display may warrant the "first name only" rebuke from our mothers, but that's it.
If you have issue with someone's reaction, be a man and politely say something to the person on the side, don't circumvent your manhood behind a rule book.
Now, If it is the fore mentioned conniption fit and in itself becomes a complete distraction to the match, all bets are off, happily throw the book at them. That has no place in the sport.
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couldn't agree more... It isn't rocket science.Don't overthink it. I've seen a number of "unique" unloaded starts, but the fast ones are always pick up gun in strong hand and mag in weak hand and load the normal way. That's the way you reload on most if not all stages, why change the sequence.
1.) Pick gun/magazine up
2.) load gun with said magazine
3.) rack slide
4.) engage targets fast!!!
Anymore than that you are overthinking it, and bound to screw it up.
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If you build it, the haters will still come.
They'll just be jealous of the PCC rifle I don't currently possess.
PCC forum please!!!
As to the haters, that is what makes most of the conversations so fun. I love to school ignorance, and every now and then I learn something new.
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is that really necessary? Seriously though, I stick to the CZ part ( particularly the 75). I can't shoot production with a 2011, correct? Why? Yet, your very nice, but tricked out CZ is at this time completely legal. I do feel that it defeats the purpose of the division. It becomes a slippery slope. I don't blame you, I actually have no issue with the fact you run the gun that gives you the most advantage. That is gaming the game. I absolutely salute that!
Nice troll.
Yes I would, only because it's you Dom, and I know you are milking every drip out ofthat rule. It didn't come out of the box like that. That is why the CZ's need to come off the production list.
You're telling me you'd rule against having two different factory grips on a production gun???I'm not arguing for that reading, just saying I'd have a hard time against it, if sitting on an arbitration panel.....
Mods-ban this guy.
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Yes I would, only because it's you Dom, and I know you are milking every drip out ofthat rule. It didn't come out of the box like that. That is why the CZ's need to come off the production list.
You're telling me you'd rule against having two different factory grips on a production gun???I'm not arguing for that reading, just saying I'd have a hard time against it, if sitting on an arbitration panel.....
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You had my interest up until you said screw a flat piece of steel to the front. bullets and flat steel don't mix. That becomes amplified when screwed/ bolted to wood exposed to the elements. End result is a two way $55 pie rack. Hence why you don't see flat surfaces on pie racks
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) Did I do it to be a poor sport, no. I was just highly frustrated. Give the guy a few minutes to breath some of us are just wired that way.
USPSA PCC Start Position
in USPSA/IPSC Shooting
Posted
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