Avenida
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Posts posted by Avenida
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quick update, this seems a recurring issue with tango owners so I wanted to document the evolution of things. Maybe this would help others down the road.
Changing the spring and small tuning the extractor did not fix my issue.
Experienced 1 FTE in 300 rounds on Saturday's practice. I am getting really frustrated with this issue, however, I would like to see the end of it and solve it and offer a solution for those out there who are having the same issue.
At this point, I am going to take the pistol to a local gunsmith (500 KM away) and have the barrel reamed plus I would also like him to look the gun over to see if I missed anything.
I am also getting my 2nd pistol this week, I will compare both extractor and look for differences to see if I missed something obvious.
One of the shooters I shoot often with, shoots a tango stock 3 extreme. His gun had the same issue as mine does, however, his FTE were more frequent. It all went away once the chamber was looked at. I am thinking that there are some serious inconsistencies on how the chambers are done at the factory, that, and the fact that they do not use SAAMI specs, might affect those on this side of the pawn who SAAMI spec'd ammo. This is just a guess.
At this point, and due to the fact that my FTEs are so random in between, I am going to go on a limp and say that my issue is chamber related.
Having a 2nd pistol to shoot and compare against with will also help me sort things out with Tanfoglio Canada/Italy in case reaming the chamber FAILS. At this point both are blaming my ammo (my ammo has always worked, in 5 years of shooting in all my guns and never had this issue before, all ammo is case gauged for dimensions -shock bottle gauge-)
I think I am getting to the bottom of this, seeing the gunsmith will help things and eliminate any extra factors that I could have missed.
Worst case scenario, after all is said and done, I will dealing with tanfoglio Canada/Italy and hope for a resolution.
I really like this gun! it is my favourite platform for production!
Also, and just for giggles, I have the opportunity to handle shadow 2 Saturday after selling mine a few months back and wow, what a difference. The ergos in the tango are perfect for me and the shadow 2 are just wrong.
Personal preference but a big one for me, or otherwise I would not spend all this time trying to fix a gun.
Anyway, I will keep this updated.
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On 2018-01-11 at 8:54 AM, johnbu said:
My "tip" on assembling the extractor uses the punch used to remove the pin and a newer full roll of masking tape.
Align the extractor, put the punch in to hold it FROM THE BOTTOM. wiggle it so it is just a bit under the top surface. Place the slide on the tape role near the edge of the bench, with the punch hanging down. Tap the roll pin in from the top.
Easier to do than write!
my system is similar but I do not use the roll, also I punch the pin from the bottom as the travel before is locks the extractor in place is much shorter, as soon as it grabs you can remove the punch holding the extractor. I only put the slide on the bench to do the finishing touches as most of it can be done held by hand.
Different technique anyway!
I think mine is better, lol.
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We have large and small frame.
Small frame is the best seller in Canada and most people will take a small vs large all day long, in 9mm.
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Quick update,
I tuned the extractor with XP springs.
As CHALEE explained, the spring had to be cut by 1 coil to avoid coil binding. It took me a few times to get it right as I did no want to cut too much.
I can now change/replace the extractor very quickly, it was great practice.
For those struggling with removing and re installing the extractor, there is a way to do this very quickly and effectively.
I will try to make a quick video when I do my 2nd Tango coming in the mail soon, and I will show how to... I confess I was a bit daunted by this exercise at first, but once you see how I do it, you will have no problems in incorporating extractor cleaning in your maintenance routine. It is easy and I think also needed in this platform as lots of GUNK gets behind the extractor and the firing prin/spring area (only after 500 rounds). I suspect that this could be also the cause of my issues.
So more testing to do on this particular unit, I did try it once and it worked flawlessly but 200 rounds is not enough testing as far as reliability, so it will be a work in progress.
I did find a gunsmith that would do my chamber so that is my final step after some more testing. I will have an answer in 1500 rounds and after I try my 2nd tanfo.
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for a 5.5 lbs trigger I just get the light EGD springs and Federal primers go off all day long.
I use a 650 and I just reloaded, never ever looked at primer depth. Federal works just fine.
I won't expect anything else to go reliably, nor I would try to experiment with a 5LBS DA. It is not worth my time at least.
I just got a 2nd stock 2 chrome that I am going to upgrade to Extreme myself.
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On 1/4/2018 at 12:36 PM, CHA-LEE said:
A small amount of machining marks in the chamber are not going to cause extraction issues if the extractor hook is tuned properly. If the extractor hook is worn or not cut at the correct angles and you are using a worn out extractor spring, then MAYBE those chamber marks would cause a problem. But in that situation the root cause of the problem is still based on the crappy extractor fit and function.
I use to shoot EAA/Tanfo guns a a lot before switching over to the 2011 platform. The one thing that always blew my mind with EAA/Tanfo guns is how inconsistent the slides were cut for the extractor groove and spring pocket. Then there was always inconsistencies in the extractors themselves in how they where manufactured. There wasn't one Slide/Extractor configuration that I used that didn't require some amount of tuning to produce 100% reliable extraction. Some setups only needed the depth of the extractor engagement to work properly, but most also required reshaping the extractor hook itself and switching to a Wolff Extra Power extractor spring. These parts are not like Lego pieces that you simply slap together and they magically work. You have to precision tune these parts to whatever is needed due to the variances in slides and extractors.
After I accepted the fact that every single EAA/Tanfo gun required the extractor setup to be tuned and simply put in the effort to do it, then I never had extraction problems after that. If you don't know how to tune these parts yourself then get it to a gunsmith who does know how to TUNE it verses throwing parts at it and hoping that it will fix the problem.
Great information here.
I know how to tune the tension now, wondering if you could give us a hand explaining a little bit as to what kind of shape you refer to when 'reshaping' the extractor.
This seems to be a very important piece of information and you seem to have a lot of experience with the platform. I think you could potentially fix all of our problems with this.
Also an an update, I have herd back from Tanfoglio and they claim that the marks in the chamber will have no effect on extraction.
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10 hours ago, reaper1 said:
In my case brass stays in the chamber and another round tries to get in causing double -feed and very bad jam.
My Tanfo's chamber looks really good compared to the photos in this thread.
So, I really hope that it was one and last time accident (FTE).
We will see very soon, another competitions are coming very soon, will let You know.
My jam is exactly like yours.
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yes I had read your thread however I was not sure as to what really happened.
Can you describe your FTE a bit more?
Does the brass stays in the chamber or does it stove pipe?
I believe that with certain ammo and certain AOL, the chambers in the tangos are so tight that get sticky under pressure. Also, chambers are very rough.
As you can see in your pictures, there are lots of tooling marks inside your chamber. Try sending a light up the barrel, buy a bore light from amazon, a reading light might work, something that has a thin light like this:
bring the light all the way up to the chamber's shoulder and flask the light. You will see all the defects of the chamber doing this. You will not see the defect otherwise, or at least, not as obvious.
My case is currently being revised by Tanfoglio Canada Rep and Italy, and they are taking a look at the pictures I have posted here. I am not sure what the resolution will be but I do think that this might be related to slightly out of spec chamber.
Good luck
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Yeah, mine you can barely feel it, however, this is the first time ever that I see this kind of finishing in a semiautomatic. I think it is unacceptable.
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this is factory and it looks like sh!t.
Awaiting for tanfoglio rep to chime in to see if they are willing to exchange the barrel. I think they should so we will see.
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oh yes you are right, I missed that part.
I think I might have found the cause of my issues. Decided to take a closer look at my chamber, not sure why I did not think of doing it before.
If one of you could do the same, it would be great to compare. Note that to achieve these images you have to shine a bore light up from the muzzle, otherwise it will not work. Any lighting coming from the camera side will flatten the edges and you will not see marks of imperfections.
Note that I have rotated the barrel so you can see the lines going all around it, however, these lines are not constant and uniform. Also, they are only located at the very end of the chamber.
I understand the chamber should taper a little bit as you get close to the shoulder (am I correct?) however, these abrupt imperfections can be a good indications of why the brass is not extracting.
Also, whitout a light, these imperfections are hard to pick up, a naked eye would see them but it is a lot harder. I had looked down the barrel more than a dozen times before and I had not see them fully.
Bringing this up to see if some of you can take a photo of your chamber (you will need a macro lens) and perhaps you can educate me if I am completely off, or my chamber has been done with an Italian chainsaw.
Thank you.
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I just found a similar thread on doodie project, and it is also recent. MemphisMec is posting on there too.
The interwebz is crazy.
Gonna follow that thread as well but according to what I read there (op has tested different ejector and springs and the issue remains), I think this is chamber related as the issue is identical to mine.
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when it comes to shipping a gun part across the border whether it is the country next door or across the globe, there is a lot of red tape to be cut otherwise you are importing piece by piece illegal firearms into the next country. Yes some parts can be shipped without this, for example, most Glock components can be. This is where ITAR and other arrangements of laws come into place.
Barrels, slides, frames, scopes, magazines and other goodies are impossible to import or ship for gun smithing unless you get the permits in place. This is not cost efficient therefore it has to be done locally.
Lucky me, in my province I found a gun smith familiar with the platform and he also has a custom made reamer for tanfoglios.
He said this pistols are chamber under CIP specifications (not SAAMI) and therefore, throats are very short and cause a lot of issues with ammo found in north america.
It is cheap to do, so I figure lets give this a try before I keep on rumbling and changing other pistol parts.
I have also ordered a 2nd Stock II chrome and is arriving shortly, so this in combination with a reamed barrel, I will soon know what is the cause of my issues.
Will keep this thread updated.
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Noted. I guess I will have to contact local gunsmith and get an idea/quote.
Might have to contact someone else in Canada.
As mentioned I am in Canada, so sending to PD is not an option.
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ok, after a chat with local dealer a recommendation has been made and guess what it was
Actually it was to not ream the chamber. They say it is not recommended, however, due to the volume of shooters that have done this to their gun, I have decided to do it on mine.
I do not have time to take this to a gunsmith and I have been toying with the idea of doing it myself. I watched all the youtube videos so I am an expert now, lol.
It scares the SH!T out of me the idea of reaming the barrel, so if someone could guide me in the right direction here that would be great. First steps is getting the reamer from Brownells.
I can see only one kind of reamer on there, and it is a finisher, I presume this should be ok.
Question:
Has anybody done this yourself?
If so, how can I make sure to not ruin the barrel?
The reamer seems VERY long, how is this not suppose to touch the rifling while reaming?
Any disadvantage in reaming the barrel?
Anyway, it seems a bit technical however I still think I can do this.
I am thinking that if I get proper guidance from here, I am willing to shoot a video of the action (have decent equipment to do so as I was a pro photographer) and have it documented for future shooters.
what do you guys think?
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Thanks for all the responses on this matter.
After reading your comments, yes I have done the plunk test correctly. 1090 is short to my taste but that is the max this gun allows for this bullet shape (147 Campro).
Coincidentally, as per the manufacturers loading data (Campro), this bullet should be loaded/recommended to be loaded at 1090 col, so we are good there.
Please also note that I was using 124 before, loaded to longer OAL, which passed the test as well.
Same extraction issues with both.
At this point, and after 2 days of continuous inspections :
- Pieces of brass I had kept / all brass did not show any evidence of brass related problems. I did not keep all of them, just some, but they all looked the same. I also load with a Dillon and my ammo is case gauged before matches. I had two malfunctions at a match 2 days ago. Very annoying.
- Extractor tension passes the test mentioned above, it has good retention. This is not an extractor issue IMHO.
-Gun has been obsessively cleaned every time before every use just so I could dial in the issue. Full disassembly andd has been polished 3 times. Gun is smooth.
My gun is a long slide AUS, therefore I use the correct long spring. My thinking is that if there is enough power to blow the slide back then the recoil spring is not at fault here. The slide is traveling all the way and trying to feed another round and in this case due the brass in the chamber jams the gun, which leads me to think this is not an overpowered spring short cycling the slide. PF of my ammo is well within the expected limits to make it run reliably.
So I have contacted the local rep here in Canada, we have a good relationship and I want to get through this as I really like this gun, I can shoot it better than a Shadow 2.
Sending to Joe at PD would have been great but I am in Canada and the logistics involved in shipping a barrel accross the border are just ridiculously expensive not to mention all the red tape I will have to sort out before then. It is not a viable option, so no luck there unfortunately.
I will wait on the recommendations from the manufacturer as to how to proceed but it certainly seems by the issues I have that the chamber might be just a hair out of spec, because the gun works fine 98% of the time otherwise...
Nonetheless, it is very frustrating and unpredictable.
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59 minutes ago, kernelofwisdom said:
I think the barrel reaming will be the final answer for me. I haven’t had an issue since I checked my mags for feed lip width. I adjusted two narrower and just shot those two mags for 200 rounds with no issues. Also the rounding the breach face edge seemed to help. The extra power extractor spring did not make a difference for me. It still continues to be a random failure as I think the worst case brass, a long round, and the tight chamber make it just common enough to be frustrating. Hence, just reaming the chamber is left as I have done everything else. It would be nice to see if anyone who has reamed chambers have extraction issues.
Yes, people I know here, had this occurrence (much more obvious and notorious than in my gun) so they had the chamber redone. The gun I know was a stock 3 and it is now 100% reliable.
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6 hours ago, Tanfastic said:
I have TWO 2017 Stock II's and both barrels were out of spec (tight) and had to be reamed. It sounds like you haven't done the "plunk test" with your ammo yet, so just do that and verify if your ammo is tight in the chamber. If it is, don't pass GO until you have your barrel reamed, it's cheap and easy to do.
The plunk test seems fine, I can load my 147 to 1090 col and they will drop in and out.
Perhaps there is something else I could add the the plunk test? I am just putting a round in, flipping barrel upside down, and it comes out on its own.
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I am having the exact issue described in this thread!
I am getting really frustrated with this pistol, thinking of getting rid of the entire rig I just spent a fortune on seems to be an option with every dissapointment.
The failure is very random and it can happen in 10 rounds or it can happen in 200. Last night I had 2 in 1 match and cost me a lot getting 3rd place, not fun when the gun lets you down.
I wish we could have Eric G chiming in with some feedback here. My gun is 2017 make and it has less than 1500 rounds through. It does it with all kinds of ammo, it does not matter what and it has done since new.
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Here is my theory:
At first I was attributing this to perhaps weak magazine springs and the slide (breech face leading edge) pushing the 2nd round forward, however, this is unlikely because:
-The barrel tilts upon unlocking, during this motion the brass does not stay in CHAMBERED position upon extraction, in fact, the brass sits a little lower o the breech face. Therefore whenever you are testing extraction tension, do not push brass all the into the channel as this is not where brass sits during extraction.
-when a round is fired, the 2nd round is below the breech face, therefore even if it had been pushed forward by the slide/breech face edge the likelihood of the 2nd round blocking the extraction of the brass is impossible at this point as in it is physically impossible. They are not touching each other. I have confirmed this doing in home experimented with hand loaded dummy rounds.
-Right before the next step, ejection happens.
-The 2nd round does not come up pushed by the magazine spring until the slide travels all the way back, this is created by physics again
and it is only at this point that it could block the brass from being ejected, however, due to timing, this is again physically impossible. Properly retained brass would have ejected at this time.
Which is why Tanfoglio does not bother in polishing the breech face (it is a nice thing to have though, it certainly adds a 0.00001 of reliability, but it is not the cause of the malfunction)
In other words: the breech face, the slide rib or the breech face angle cut, magazines or magazines springs are not creating this malfunction.
Fix:
The fact that the brass is left in the chamber is an indication that the ejector is slipping on the brass and not extracting it. This can be created by:
Weak extractor spring
Improperly tuned extractor (unlikely in my opinion)
Bent / deformed /worn extractor hook
Again, this is my theory and I am not claiming that every gun with this issue will be the same.
This is not considering any other type of FTF or FTE but the one we are describing in the first post.
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Historically, this was an issue back in 2015 due to Tanfoglio having some tooling issues and chambers where cut below SAAMI specs, therefore, upon firing a round, the brass would expand around the chamber very tightly and would not extract, ejector would slip and there you go you have a jam.
My gun is 2017 so I am hoping my chamber is within specs.
I just bought a few wolf extractor springs, I am going to give this a try. Next step if this does not work is contacting local rep for a prompt solution
We will see how it goes.
looking forward for some input.
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5 hours ago, aales1 said:
Hi!
I have bought and installed following parts (also polished them):
Tanfoglio Xtreme Titan Hammer
Tanfoglio Xtreme Sear Lever - Model : Regular (one-piece)
Tanfoglio Xtreme Interruptor
Tanfoglio Xtreme Trigger Bar Guide
Tanfoglio Xtreme Firing Pin Spring - Model : Medium
Tanfoglio Xtreme Hammer Spring - Model : Medium
Tanfoglio Xtreme Firing Pin - Model : Small Frame
Tanfoglio Xtreme Firing Pin Safety
I have also bought both of the springs, but I chose tanfoglio not Patriot defense, not really knowing why, I guess difference in price
I agree on the polishing. I am new to "gunsmithing" so my polishing is something that I need to work on. I have a plan to do it again after few shooting sessions.
But trigger weight aside, my trigger is worlds apart from the factory one. SA break is fenomenal. I always really liked feeling of 1911 triggers, and except of the pre travel, now on tanfoglio feels quite the same.
Thank you!
Best regards,
Ales
I have done the exact same to mine.
Trigger is a pleasure to shoot!
Cheers
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best thread and great videos, thank you Memphis!
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good thread!
I found this thread very useful, I was having FTF too and turns out my slide is pushing my 2nd round forward causing a failure to extract (brass is hitting the next round under it because it is too far forward.Here is a quick tip for you guys looking at rounding the leading edge of the breech face, without damaging or accidentally sanding anything else:
1 Get a flat and thin (as thick as that edge) piece of wood, something like an ice cream wooden stick is perfect for this2 Add some glue to the face of the stick (UHU stic is perfect and easy)
3 Cut a strip of sandpaper (nothing coarser than 600 grit) to fit the face of the stick
4 you just created a home made file
Using wood comes in very handy because the edges are soft and will not mark the slide so you do not have to worry about accidentally sanding other parts of the slide.
With this techinique, I polish the edge to a mirror finish using 600 grit first, then 800, then 1000 and finish with dremel and long buffing wheel. If I get around taking pics I will post one.
Hope this little tip helps someone, cheers.
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awesome.
I think mine is better, lol.
Stock 2 failure to extract issue
in Tanfoglio (EAA / IFG)
Posted
These pieces of brass very scratched, indicating a rough chamber. This will cause the brass to stick,
the f,act that your brass is missing a piece indicates also extractor strength.
i would start bu having the chamber polished.