westczek

Yes congradulations to Josh for his win and to all the other revolver shooters for picking a lovely day to shoot. It was a pleasure shooting with two of the three Robs shooting revo in the match. Westczek

I'm shooting a S&W 686 in USPSA and occasional steel matches. What ever you shoot, game wise, you will likely choose to shoot 38 Special, loaded to minor power factor. I use moly-coated lead bullets for economy and easy barrel cleaning. If you go that route then you will be tapper crimping, so as not to cut the coating. I'm using a four die Lyman 38/357 set, I don't change the seating depth now that I have got my setup the way I want it. On grips, I use the Miculek grips and like them. The main benefit is that they are smooth. Some folks find that finger grooves can be a uncomfortable if you don't get just the right grip in action pistol shooting. For reference, I'm comfortable shooting a Beretta 92 or CZ 75 pistol. When I started shooting revolvers I wanted thicker, but as I started shooting more and manipulating the gun for USPSA I found I wanted thinner again. Its your trip and you really will have to take it to find your answer. Let us know what sport you're shooting or planning to shoot. Westczek

Yes, the plan was to go production from the start and not have to worry about the seventh shot. I shoot a six-shooter in minor for revolver division. This was more hypothetical and more for the rare occasion I may want to go that route. I haven't shot with speed loaders and only have two at the moment, and no way to carry them. Although it is probably a skill I should at least familiarize myself with... someday. Westczek

Not that I have any plans of signing up for anything other than revolver at a USPSA match, but... I was wondering if after market conversion of cylinders to accept moonclips would be a violation of production division rules. It isn't really an external modification, is it? And of course some factory S&W 686s have come already cut for moons. Just wondering I know some here have used thier S&W 627s and I was not sure if all of those were factory cut. If I ever need to use my seven shot it might be good to go production, instead of facing an intra-match switch to open division. On the other hand I could always use more practice on my counting. Westczek

DWFAN, I'm running a 6" barreled 686 for what it's worth. Your velocity will be less in 686 SSR, but I have no 4" barrel data. I've been using this for the last year. If you crimp it tigt enough it averages around 900 fps with about 60 fps range. 158 grn LRN moly coat (Black bullets Int) Remington or Federal brass Federal primers 4.8 grn Unique OAL 1.45 Taper crimp I have also been working on a load with same specs, but wih Solo 1000, looks promising, but not a lot of data yet. I worked it up to 4.2 grn Solo 1000. Only 5 rounds 861, 845, 844, 874 and 856 fps. Lots of published data for Unique, but not for Solo 1000. Westczek

Bonus points to DWFAN, I am a revolver shooter, one of the few not using a S&W 625 and 45 ACP it would seam. I use 38 special in a 6 inch S&W 686, so recoil isn't much of an issue. You know, no mater how high a power factor, I can't get the ammo to cycle my wheel gun Thanks for all the advice on this issue and ideas about methodolgy. I have three 5 shot strings for one of the lighter loads and even the lowest velocity shot is above than 130 power factor. Westczek

What is a comfortable margin for making minor? I have crono'd a number of loads I could use for a match that will have a chronograph. Temperature should be similar t when I recorded the data. What should I consider? I took readings of 5 rounds of incrementally heavier loads. Should I average all 5 velocities or just use the lowest 3? Based on this the loads I've been using are around a 136 power factor. Velocities of 853, 860 and 876 for and average of 863 with a 158 grn bullet ( weight range of 157-159). Any thoughts would be appreciated. Westczek

I finally got a supply of Federal primers and allowing me to lower the power on the mainspring and rebound spring in my S&W 686. When I was living hand to mouth and I was snapping up Wolf primers like a starving man, it was full power factory springs all the way. The lighter springs truely make a differnce, very much on speed. I used the Wolffe reduced power spring kit with 13 lb rebound, I didn't get a posiive return with the 12 lb. I also added the C&S extended firing pin. Althought the last year with factory springs has really built up the trigger finger muscles, I'm happy to focus on speed a little more. Feeling very excited about my the improvement in my guns trigger, offered it to my chief competitor here in Virginia to try. The groaning and mock strain came as a bit of a shock... Until I tried her gun, with Carmoney trigger. Ummm, very light, I would be afraid of muscle atrophy if my trigger was that light. Westczek

I do agree that if you don't have a serious reason to disassemble the extractor assembly, it's not a good idea. I only did it because the six shot cylinder donor that I had was a snub and I needed to put a full length rod on it. I had quite a bit of trouble taking the short one apart using a drill chuck. The full length rod (it was a double transplant) worked fine with the chuck. I'm not sure how much a tool like one of these would have helped. On the idea of tools being an indicator of the level of revolver enthusiasm, I meant it rather tongue-in-cheek. However, for businesses to make the tools there would have to be at least some critical mass of market interest (you would think). Westczek

I wonder if this is some sort of indicator on the popularity of revolver... A few years back when tried to order an extractor rod tool from Brownells I saw that the manufacturer had discontinued them. Now Brownells is making the tool again and Power Custom also has a tool for the job. Today I got the new Dillion catalog and was surpised to find another tool being made for the job. L. Bengtson Arms Co. has a third take on the extractor rod tool. I supose there are only so many ways to skin this cat, but could another tool be on the way? Maybe this is the "gun tool index" of firearm popularity, but is it a leading or lagging indicator? I have the Power Cutom tool, it works on three differnt size extractors, pretty simple design. The Brownells tool is designed for a specific size, extractor, so you need a differnt tool for differnt extractor sizes. The L. Bengtson Arms Co tool fits two sizes, looks like J on one side and K/L/N frames on the other. Westczek

Safariland 002 Cup Challange holster would work. It is for a 6", but the bottom is open and the sight protector is removable. It is very snug out of the box, but I used mine with an N-frame a couple weeks ago, worked just like with my 6" L-frame. Tenson screws are on the back, holds cylnder and covers trgger gaurd well, many use it in USPSA. It is in the $70 territory. It is not the greatest holster. I don't like the suede linning, it holds the gun a little higher than most would like and it tends to cant inward. However, it was the only thing in it's price range I could find suitable for 6" or longer barreled revolvers in USPSA. It does the job. The other option I've seen, but not tried is the CRspeed for revolvers. However, it is about $180. Others use Bladetech or other holster similar to Kydex pisto holsters, but I haven't seen that used by anyone for anything beyond a 5" barrel. You would just have to draw higher to clear the barrel. The Safariland you only need to clear the cylinder. I haven't seen anyone using leather flap holsters in USPSA, but I've never seen anyone shooting any old Handejectors, Colt SAA or Webley's. The Webley would be cool with the flap holster, definite stle points. Westczek

I knew I could count on all of you for encouragement, thanks. Yes beating some folks with autos is a fine consoltion. I don't discourage easily... my standing goal is USPSA revolver "C" class. I will need to pickup some speed for that, but I'm in no hurry. I did sign up for the Mid-Atlantic Sectional in Sept, hopefully there will be at least as many revolver shooters for that. Possible? I did get to see Josh shoot one stage at the steel match. Always fun to watch someone who is quick with a revolver. In his case more than a third faster than myself. Westczek

Just got the scores for the PA Steel Challange Campionship match in York. A fun match. There is not much Steel Challange in my area, so I was looking forward to this match. I came in a distant and last fith place for the iron sighted revolver division. I wasn't expecting anymore, I'm a revolver D class in USPSA, but one can't help but feel like the slowest gun in the East. Well, until I compared my scores to some of the other divisions. I managed to best 11 limited shooters, 7 production shooters, 6 rimfires and even on open shooter. I did have one goal beyond finishing the match, I wanted finish the match without using the the 7th round in my revolver, I have a S&W 686 7 shot. I didn't make it, had to use number 7 on two strings. However, I never need to reload, and hit every target, which I'll count for something in my personal calculations. If we can only get some of those guys in limited and production, to come over to revolver... Westczek

Rob, You would think I was loading these suckers up with plutonium... Don't worry I'll likely be using the non-thermal nuclear Unique fired 38 Specials I ussually use. I'm still not sure about the moonclips. The Starline brass is very loose on the 38/357 clips. One out of six rounds don't really seam like they will be able to stay put. If I go this route I will likely need to get the Heathco 38 Short Colt clips. Westczek

Carmoney, Thanks for the info on the N-frame 357 mag cyliners 6 shot vs 8 shot. It's too bad, I like being able to switch in the L-frame. Westczek

Just to ask the question a differnt way... When loading 38 Short Colt for use in a modern 357 Magnum revolver, arn't we just trying to approximate 9mm luger with a straight walled and rimmed case, instead of having the cylinder converted to 9mm luger? Is there a problem with looking at it this way? I'm not real attached to HS-6 as a powder, except that I bought a pound of it when I was not able to find W231 and there was a fair amount of published data for HS-6 in 9mm luger. I now have an HS-6 38 Short Colt load that works and doesn't appear to have any negative signs, primers or extraction, the unburned powder went away with the deeper seating, 1.14" vs 1.16". If it was in a 9mm pistol I don't believe this load would even be +P. Thanks Westczek

Tom E, The case lenght you are using looks like it is between Short Colt and Long Colt. The main reason I'm playing with short colt is so I have less case to clear the cylinder before a reload. Westczek

Ok... this isn't really a solution, but it is how I handled the 6 shot problem. I had a 7 shot S&W 686, there was no way I was going to reliably count to 6 (I can't count on my fingers and hold the gun). I bought a seperate 6 shot cylinder for the 686. I use that for USPSA. I will be switching to my 7 shot cylinder next week for the PA Steel Challange match, hey one extra chance to miss can't hurt. Why not pick up a 6 shot cylinder for your 8 shot 627s? Of course you would have to shoot 38s. More on topic... If you have a gun you like and you like to shoot it... Shoot it in what ever division it is legal and have fun. Most local matches I go to are lucky to have more than one revolver shooter. I'm one of two signed up for the Sunday match in Fredericksberg, VA. But its no because people have 8 shot 627s that don't fit into the revolver division. One thing that may help in rules changes, would be to lower minor power factor for revolver division. This would allow non-reloading shooters with 38 Special/357 magnum revolvers to buy more economical remanufactured ammo without fear of not meeting power factor (There may be some issues around steel calibration, true). The ammo, and me not reloading was one of the main issue which delayed my switch to revolver. I shot production with Winchester white box 9mm before. Westczek

AZshooter, Thanks for the advice. I was very concerned about pressure too. I've been inspecting the primers after every shot. I've seen photos of flowing or distorted primers in books. These look the same as my low power 38 Special loads or factory loads. Is there anything else I should look for? Also all cases extracted with no effort. Are you using lead bullets with a roll crimp? Westczek

I know 38 Short Colt loadings for USPSA or ICORE come up every once ina while. I thought I would share my recent experiments. I was working off what I have read here, but using the diffent powder... HS-6. I had bought the HS-6 for 9mm loads with 147 grn bullets. It has a slower burn rate than the W231 I liked, but still a ball powder which meters well, so I thought I would try it to see if there was much of a differnce. On to 38 Short Colt. I'm working on a load for my S&W 686 with a 6" barrel. I bought some Starline 38 Short Colt brass. I wanted to load the same 158 grn moly coated round nose bullets I use for 38 Special minor loads. Many of you have suggested working from 9mm loading data. So I started with data I had for 9mm 147 grn lead bullets. For dies I am using a 38 Special/357 mag sizing, 9mm bell, 9mm seating and 9mm taper crimp. My first attempt was very conservative. I used the published starting load for HS-6, about 4.4 gns, for the 147 grn bullet. I seated to an OAL of 1.16" not nearly as deep as the published load data for 147 grn 9mm bullet. When cronographed, velocity averaged near 650 fps... whith 2 grns more HS-6 averaged about 700 fps. I was also getting powder residue dusting my cronograph at 8 ft away. I revaluated. The 9mm bullets were getting seated much deeper. I decided to reduce OAL to 1.14". I also made sure I was gettin a snug taper crimp. The new OAL of 1.14 with 4.6 grns of HS-6 got me up to an avergae 750 fps, but a wide range 704-787 fps. My next batch was 4.9 grns of HS-6, that got me above 800 fps, but not consistently. 5.2 grn of HS-6 got me well over 800 fps and the spread decreased, 853-898 fps. These are all small batch tests, 5 to 10 rounds with each load. I want to focus on 5 grns of HS-6 and see if I can get that to work to my liking. Accuracy appears good at 25 yrds, but I wasn't doing serious accuracy work. Any thoughts? Westczek

Dave, I go the box of Winchester 125 grn JHP 38 special +p labled personal protection at Wallmart. It was the 50 round white box USA stuff. Under the bar code is 20892 21317 if that means anything to you. It is all head stamped WINCHESTER 38 SPL+P. I check the Winchester website, no surprise, no info there. Westczek

Bubber, True. That waswhy I was surprise to see the groove change with this new ammo. I wouldn't see much reason for Winchester to change. I know Smith and Wesson is offering more guns with moonclips, but... Westczek

I just got a box of basic Winchester 38 special +p ammo to try out in my S&W 642. After shooting I noticed that the extractor groove is much wider than those on all the old Winchester 38 special brass I have. I even appears to be wider than the Remington brass I use with moonclips in my S&W 686. Might even be close to a Starline size groove. Does anyone know about this? Is there some new standard? Westczek

Forrest, Soundslike an interesting project. The bob-job looks very agressive. I like the idea of a light k-frame, even for USPSA, maybe a longer barrel though. Shot North Mountain today, three revo shooters. Westczek

Thanks that makes sense. Westczek