openclassterror
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Posts posted by openclassterror
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For those that are building 3gun shotguns on the M3k platform, they are (for the most part) almost ready to rock. The most obvious omission is an extended magazine. The reason they do not come with one is compliance with the 922(r ) rule from ATF, which states that shotguns not "intended for sporting purposes" may not contain more than a specified number of significant imported parts. By the current definition, any semi-auto shotgun that hold more than 5 rounds is not a "sporting shotgun" and therefore must comply with 922(r ). So, essentially, they have a list of "major components", and if there are more than 10 of the named components in the gun, it cannot have an extended magazine and maintain compliance. So just like with an imported AK47, if you want fun options (like big mags) you must replace some original parts with USA made parts to keep the magic number under 10. In the case of an imported shotgun, it is much easier (and cheaper) to just ship it with no magazine extension and let it be the end-user's problem. Otherwise, they would have to ship it here, and then add a couple US-made parts in order to sell it with the magazine extension included.
Long story short, the M3K ships without a magazine extension. No big deal, several companies now make extensions for them. BUT!!!!!! The follower they include is not at all suitable for use with a magazine extension. The original M3000 follower is black anodized aluminum, and although it is a little short, it has sufficient chamfers on the ends to go through the joint between tubes without catching, unless the steel primary tube attached to the receiver has no inside bevel at all. The new M3k has a molded follower made of orange plastic, and it is dead square on all corners, as well as being short. Here is a picture of the M3K follower next to our 2nd Gen low drag follower. Nordic's replacement follower is somewhat similar to ours in terms of overall length and chamfers, and theirs works well too. But the orange factory follower does not work well at all with extended magazines, not even the Carbon Arms extended tube. It will get hung up on the junction with the short extension at the end of the primary tube. So, it really doesn't matter what aftermarket follower you use, just make sure that you get one when you get your extended mag tube or it will not feed reliably.
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I totally don't see the issue. To be honest, if it keeps questions irrelevant to the majority of USPSA shooters from clogging the upper forums, I see that as a good thing. If 3-gunners are truly developing a separate breed of pistol usage, how is that different from having the open pistol sub-forum for those of us on the dark side? When I have a specific 2011 question I still go up-top and look in the appropriate forum. It's not like it will keep people from seeing an advertising banner that someone is paying for in another sub-forum or something, is it?
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Free-float handguard is the main reason the hard barricade isn't hurting competitors. Rest the barrel on the top of said barricade and groups go to hell in a hurry. Sweeny did a "Mythbusters" type test on this in one of his books, and resting the barrel (or handguard if not floated) on a hard object gave significant (2"high at 25yd if memory serves) POI movement, though group size varied much less than group shift. So, in my opinion:
1) not true, factual evidence contradicts. your original learning was correct.
2)Sweeny's tests were with ARs, so lack of recoil does not negate answer to (1)
3) Yes
4) 2 and 3 are separate issues
5) Depends on match, but doing something you KNOW reduces your potential inherent accuracy is never good no matter how big the targets.
In your situation, best solution would be prone next to barricade, or a hold (as described in one of the above posts) where your hand isolates the gun from the prop.
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Alaska doesn't care about size on "sporting goods cases", but if you overshoot 52lbs and it says 52.5, you get the overweight fee. Any other piece of luggage that is not classified as "sporting goods" has to follow size policy. They are also the only airline I am aware of that will let you use the entire 50 lb limit on ammo. I once checked one of the green plastic ammo cans stuffed to the top with ammo (47lbs total) and just slapped a padlock on it and wrapped it with duct tape in case they dropped it. No problem. But, all of Alaska's baggage policies are easily printed from their website, so all you have to do is print out relevant pages before you go to the airport in case you run into an idiot. I prefer Alaska whenever possible, due to the prevailing pro-sportsman attitude of their management to this point.
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Cross-pin that retains the bolt head is always staked. Interesting. Might be that there are variations depending on which assembly guy puts the gun together. For sure, we have seen some magazine tubes that have been literally drenched in green Loctite before screwing into the receiver, and others that came apart easily by hand, without even applying heat. Any production line type environment will have some human-caused variations
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Very important note on the extractor pin issue- If you started working on it before watching the video, and attempted to drive it out in the wrong direction by using a punch on the exposed end, there is a very good chance that it is tight because the pin itself is mushroomed. The pivot pin is not very hard steel, and if you drive it against the shelf inside the bolt the end of the pin flares out and it becomes much harder to remove. After it comes out, it should be a lot easier to move in the future because it gets re-sized as it comes out of the bolt.
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That would be the bolt spring I was referring to. Surprising that he had a brand new one that wouldn't work. Was it dragging in the tube due to being oversize or kinked, or just weak?
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He said the lifter is coming up halfway, so I took that to mean the shell is coming out far enough to trip the shell latch. Generally if the mag spring has gone soft, the shell doesn't depress the latch against the side of the receiver and the lifter stays all the way down. Also, if it the mag spring it usually happens only on the last one or two shells in the magazine. That is something to watch for when diagnosing. Have you noticed if it is random, or only when the mag is almost empty?
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3 potential issues most likely, others possible but less likely.
1) dirty/ dry. As stated above, the lifter and lifter dog can't be jammed up with crud against the trigger group. Drag on the bolt raceways or the bolt spring from severe grubbiness can also keep the bolt from fully actuating the lifter.
2) lifter spring. Gets weak over time, as it is cycled over a pretty significant percentage of its length. If you have less than 1,000 rounds through the gun, probably not this one though
3) bolt spring. As in (2), not usually the cause unless round counts are climbing.
Long story short, start with a thorough cleaning and lube job, and only look beyond that if necessary.
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Ugh, no fun! I broke one of my wisdom teeth in half about a week ago, and Monday I go in for the extraction. Definitely not looking forward to that! Youngeyes, I am not sure if that works but I am sure willing to give it a try!
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If you went to a match with nothing but "low recoil" 40 grain varmint loads for your AR because they are easier to shoot fast at paper, then discovered when you got there that there were 400 yard shots in the wind, you are unprepared, the stage is not unfair. To me, 25 percent of a major match is homework and stage watching before the first shot is fired. Be prepared for any potential target presentation, and know your limitations so you don't waste undue time on targets that you don't have the ability/ equipment to handle. When I started, an 8 inch target at 350yds was beyond my/my rifle's ability, and at my first major I wasted almost a mag on every long target. (It was the NW Multigun challenge, so there were several on every stage past 200 yds) . Now, the same targets I have confidence in because my skill level has increased, I am running a rifle that can make that shot, and if the hits aren't there for some reason I move on quickly. The spinner IS NO DIFFERENT. At first, it ate my lunch. Then, I was happy to see it as long as it was somewhere I could shoot it with my shotgun and a tight choke. Then, I got to the point where double or triple hits with my pistol were in my wheelhouse, so seeing it on a pistol stage no longer scared me. Then I discovered that if I use my long range rifle ammo (77s), it wasn't too bad with a rifle as long as I remember the delay between when my brain says go and the bullet gets there. Slugs, I feel I can get there, but I am not there yet. Challenge to overcome. Hopefully a year from now I will be thinking " Gee, I remember when this used to scare me".
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All shotguns going forward that leave our shop will be checked for this issue and deburred. Faulty extractors will be replaced. The P3K Signature gun will have the Benelli parts installed per Pat's request unless he changes that requirement at some point in the future.
It takes 5 minutes to remove the extractor, polish the slot, and check for free movement. Like polishing the magazine tube, if it needs to be done to ensure reliability, it will be done before we put our name on it. Period. I will also mention it to Stoeger in the hopes that the issue is addressed at the factory, so nobody running a Stoeger will have to worry about it. But for now at least, I can only assure that for the ones that go through our shop.
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If the burrs are bad, the extractor may be hanging up from the get-go. Keep in mind that when the bolt closes, the extractor cams out completely off the rim of the cartridge when it hits the breech cut in the barrel, and doesn't re-grab until the bolt head rotates out of battery. If the extractor is sticking in its slot, it may not rotate inward consistently to get a good grip on the rim every time.
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New tech on the extractor issue- I really don't believe in the long run that replacing all these extractors and springs is going to be necessary. I have some pictures to show what I mean. In almost every case where we have had a Stoeger come in due to extraction issues, we have found scratches on both sides of the extractor as shown in the first picture. If you push the extractor to one side or the other of its slot in the bolt head and try to pivot it, you can feel it bind on the sides of the slot. It feels kind of gritty, like sandpaper. After removing the extractor, small burrs are evident right at the top edges of the slot. My son's shotgun began having extraction issues at the MGM Junior camp after many months and at least 2,000 rounds of flawless function. After getting back, I decided to trouble-shoot instead of just replacing every part in sight. So, I used a diamond coated needle file to remove the burrs at the mouth of the slot, and flat-polished the sides of the extractor on 600 grit paper to remove the burrs along the scratches shown in the pic. After re-installation, drag on the sides of the extractor was significantly less than before. On Saturday, we had a local 3gun match, and my son shared the shotgun with another shooter. Between the two of them there were nearly 200 rounds fired with no more extraction issues, FROM THE SAME LOT OF AMMO that was giving 1-2 FTEs per magazine load earlier in the week at the camp.
So, in conclusion, the Benelli extractor may be a Band-Aid fix. If your extractor looks like the pic, it is only going to fix the problem until the new extractor is also binding up. Check for burrs in the extractor slot. The slightly stronger spring may help overcome the drag, but I put the Stoeger factory spring back in and it worked fine once the underlying cause was addressed.
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I had generally disregarded these as a gimmick when they first came out, and heard some horror stories about reliability in matches. Never thought about them again until the USPSA Multigun Nats, when I saw several of them in use. Haven't seen any in the 3gun Nation regional events I have attended over the last couple years. Can anyone with personal first-hand knowledge tell me if they can be depended on? I shoot unlimited/open, so I am not restricted from using them, but I don't use the big Beta snail mags because they always seized up when I desperately needed to keep shooting. So, now that they have been out a while, what do we know abut the Surefires?
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Haha, our "normal" business hours (pacific coast time) are 6:30 am when the first guy here unlocks the door (usually Jonathan) until I give up and go home somewhere between 6:30 and 9pm. In the wintertime when work is slow(er), I usually go home no later than 7pm. Unless I am prototyping new parts for SHOT........... , or trying to get a little ahead so I don't feel guilty about going to a match........ or
I only spent the night here maybe 15 times in the last year because there wasn't enough time to bother going home before coming back. The Joys of owning a business..... 
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Isn't that what the fat tail on the bore snake is for? Haha
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+5 is almost perfect. Total capacity is 9+1, but you can ghost load one onto the carrier for a total of 11 in the gun if the situation ever calls for it.
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The Dave's Metal works easyloader replaces he factory lifter latch. It required some fitting when installed. Did you happen to test it at all with the factory latch before you installed it? If the bolt is locking open with the next shell laying on the carrier, this can be caused by any of the following-
1) Low bolt cycle speed due to poor gas seal or under-powered loads (mentioned by others above). Essentially the shell hits the latch before the bolt is all the way back, and it re-latches before the bolt engages the lifter dog.
2) The little hooks you had to fit between the easyloader and the lifter have too much friction or a little too much undercut, and need the heavier recoil slap of the stouter loads to jar it loose so the bolt will close.
3) The magazine spring has insufficient strength to launch the shell against the latch to release it. This is least likely if it functions with some ammo but not others, and most likely if malfunctions occur more frequently with an almost-empty mag and hardly ever with a full mag.
There are other possibilities, but these I have seen personally most frequently. What are the specs on the lighter bird loads that wouldn't run?
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In our local match this month, I put together a spinner test stage. It went like this: Don't spin the spinner at all, 60 sec penalty. Can be engaged with rifle from 100 yds, slugs from VTAC wall at 70, birdshot at 20, pistol at 15. Spin it once with any of the four choices for zero penalty. For each additional engagement that resulted in a spin, 30 second bonus. Out of 18 shooters, maybe 6 attempted the slugs. Of those six, two shooters hit it once, but failed to spin it with subsequent shots. About 3/4 attempted the Rifle, and 6 spun it. Nearly everyone spun it with the birdshot, and all but two spun it with the pistol. There were additional targets for all three guns to make it a real stage, and most importantly there were a few mandatory pistol targets that had to be engaged after dumping the shotgun but before re-engaging the spinner. This was to keep people from blasting the hell out of it with birdshot, then popping off one or two pistol rounds while it was still spinning for a gimme bonus. Here was how it worked for me:
Rifle: I had 77gr bullets, which I know from past experience will spin it in 10 hits or less if I don't miss. Well, I couldn't get on top of my timing, and I was breaking the trigger when the bullets needed to already be there. 4 misses interspersed with 12 not always optimal hits took 32 sec. So, I avoided the 60 sec penalty, but didn't make money against the bonus time.
Shotgun Slugs: Still haven't replaced the red-dot I broke at Ironman, so my confidence was low. Took 3 shots in about 4 sec, never hit the bottom plate, cut my losses. Again, lost money against the bonus, but had the sense not to let it bleed me dry.
Shotgun Birdshot: Topped up between knockdowns on my way up to the fault line, got there with 5 rounds in the gun. ( we are limited to #7-1/2 shot, 1300fps max at our range). Hit, Miss, Poor Hit, Good Hit, then drove it over the top with my last shot instead of waiting an extra second to watch and see if it was gonna stall or go over, dumped empty shotgun. Total 6 seconds, so I made good money on that bonus.
Pistol: Engaged the two mandatory 50 yard steel plates, then double tap on the lower paddle, shoot two nearby steel, one on the top, shoot one nearby steel, two on the bottom again, two nearby steel, drive it over with two to the top, and shoot the last standing steel as the RO calls it spun. Total engagement time was 9 seconds, but I got 5 other targets while I waited on the timing. So really, it only cost me maybe 4-5 additional seconds over engaging the surrounding steel.
Net result, 60 seconds in bonuses, a 60 second penalty averted, for a cost of 51 seconds of clock time. Net gain of -9 seconds (from zero)
Had I skipped all but my fastest engagement (6 seconds on the birdshot) I would have averted the 60 second penalty, and had no bonuses, for a cost of 6 seconds of clock time. Net loss of 6 seconds (from zero)
Total difference in final time was only 15 seconds. One could argue that the gap would have been even smaller had I skipped the additional engagements, as I wouldn't have lost time decelerating/accelerating from the shooting positions, slowing while topping off the shotgun, Etc. So, in reality, at my skill level and equipment condition, and the bonus values, it was dang near a wash. BUT!!!!! I GUARANTEE YOU I had a hell of a lot more fun on that stage than the guys that skipped half the opportunities, and gained useful practice and information as well.
(edited because I can't spell after midnight
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We are currently having extreme difficulty getting a large enough supply of all models (M3000 in 24 or 26" barrels as well as M3Ks), as we are pretty much depleting the entire supply in our sales district. If any of you have M3Ks on order, or even M3000s of either barrel length listed, we are considering starting a trade-in program to get shotguns from outside our sales area. PLEASE don't cancel guns that are on order! Perhaps we can work out a mutually beneficial deal where you can ship your shotgun to us for a rebate, or to save extra background checks and duplicate transfers, we can buy the gun you have on order from your dealer when it arrives if we can deliver your gun prior to its arrival. As of today, Stoeger industries said extra 24" replacement barrels are 4-6 MONTHS (!) out, due to the demand of complete guns. The best way to ensure quickest delivery on custom guns is to buy any that you come across for a reasonable price, and send it to us rather than waiting on us for complete guns. We are pre-selling all we can get weeks before they arrive. The only exception is the occasional gun that gets canceled before it ships, which then goes to the next available customer that ordered the same features. Thanks so much for your patience guys! I actually just had Sportsman's Warehouse do store-to-store transfers of every 26" they have in this half of the state to our local store to supplement what we can get so we can build some of the guns that have been on order for over a month. It means we break even on every gun, but at least they will get built sooner than otherwise.
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The reason there are 500 different opinions on the "best" port shape is that no two hands are the same shape, and there are so many different loading methods. Some people have long skinny fingers, some short and thick. There are typical thumbs and club thumbs. Strong hand, weak hand, load 2, quad, weak hand 4, etc. Also, some people bend their thumbs a bit and poke them into the mag tube, some cant the gun towards or away from the load hand. Some hold the gun in a position so they can "look" the shells into the port (strong hand), others don't. EVERY ONE of them would come up with a different ideal shape if they were able to try an infinite number of designs. The two most important features are to remove any lips or sharp edges at the mouth of the tube, creating a "funnel" with nothing to hang up the shell nose as it enters the tube, and remove any metal that stops your thumb before the shell rim snaps past the shell latch. For some, adjusting the technique to the gun means not much metal has to come off to accomplish this. For others, this means almost cutting the gun in half so they can have very sloppy hand movements without causing an "accidental ghost load". The minimal method requires a great deal more practice to master, the other can be usable in a few hours. This is why the guys who find that they need a lot less gun surgery also happen to be the same guys who could spank most of us with an out of the box Remington 870. THEY HAVE MANY, MANY, MANY HOURS of practice loading with their preferred technique. And THAT, my friends, will shave more clock seconds off your match scores than any amount of chopping on your receiver.
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If you aren't in a HUGE hurry, I have an M3K that we are running through the ringer right now. We will be posting side-by-side comparisons, and then I am going to take full advantage of the relocated serial number to take the porting as far as possible. At that point there will be a photo log of features, and you will be able to see exactly how much there is to be gained with the M3K as a base model as opposed to the M3000. Unfortunately the project is getting pushed back a little because I injured my back yesterday morning and ended up in the hospital. Trying to get back to walking in time to drive my son to the MGM Junior camp in a couple days.
When it rains it pours I guess
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When you clean it, do you remove the bolt head and cam pin? Also, what type of lubricant do you use on the shank of the bolt head and the cam surface? What does the inertia spring look like when you pull it? Gunky, wet but clean, or fairly dry? Remington ammo generally isn't too bad, But I have noticed with the gun club stuff that there are often flakes of unburnt powder floating around the action after I use a quantity of it. I meant it about sending a factory hammer spring if the TTI one isn't reliably firing the ammo you use. Many of our take-off springs are brand new.
I only spent the night here maybe 15 times in the last year because there wasn't enough time to bother going home before coming back. The Joys of owning a business..... 
Plastic follower in the M3K
in Shotgun - Technical
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The shoulder that stops the follower from popping out of the mag tube is further forward than the web between the magazine and the barrel. It allows the follower to protrude far enough out of the tube to ensure that the round doesn't hang up on that web when the lifter brings it up. Basically to ensure that the round pops far enough out of the mag tube. The reason ours is beveled rather that square on the protruding nose is that some shells have a very deep crimp with a lip around it, and the factory type sometimes "grabs" the inside of the lip on the first shell into the magazine, especially if inserted at an angle (as in duos or quads). Quite a few factory followers are going to more of this shape, with the big bevel on the nose. Maybe one brand of shells in 50 give a problem, but if it is the brand you use, it sucks. The beveled nose makes it a non-issue.