openclassterror
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Posts posted by openclassterror
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Actually, they are unique. The rim slot in the upper plate VERY positively prevents the shells from dislodging when leaning on them. One of our pro shooters recently got a set and fell in love with them. He was doing a demo at the SHOT show where he went prone right on top of a one liter water bottle, rolled around on it back and forth over the holder, popped up and loaded the shotgun. None of the shells will come out unless you pull BOTH shells out at the same time. You can pull quads or duos, but try to get the upper or lower to release by itself and it is almost impossible. The stacks don't "cave in" in the middle when they come in contact with something. I actually like everything about them but the price.
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No, all we need is a long-term reliability confirmation of the technology that is being developed right now. It is entirely possible that one of these (hopefully ours, but at least SOMEBODIES) will be the one we have all been hoping for. I am just not willing to mass-produce magazines until we are 100% certain that the ones we are using now are legit. This isn't as easy as taking a design that has been working for 25 years and changing the material (like the Magpul P-Mag). It took a little tweaking, but look at how long guys have been fighting reliability issues with the 7.62x39, or the Grendel, Etc. Those are MINOR shape changes compared to a bull-nosed, rimmed cylinder 3/4 inch in diameter.
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I can tell you from experience, the magazines will be the rise or fall of these guns. We have had a DPMS .308 lower based shotgun running for 18 months. The variability of existing magazines was the only thing holding back its launch. We finally started making our own Aluminum magazines in-house, because it was the only way to be sure they worked. Unfortunately the mags take 2 hours EACH to machine, so they have become the manufacturing bottleneck on our shotgun. It uses a Benelli M2 type inertia system instead of a finicky gas system. We launched it at SHOT last year, but my health problems over this last year have really slowed our ability to produce numbers. Hopefully I will get my Robo-hip installed in the near future so I can go back to productive 16 hour days.
Notes on the three above:
1 and 2 actually share very little true modularity with the AR10 or DPMS platforms. More like the MK1919, there is a deliberate resemblance but operationally quite different. Neither one is shown firing.
3- I noticed when watching the video that they NEVER show continuous footage of more than 5 rounds being fired, in spite of talking about larger magazine capacity. All the 6 round strings are after reloads with one in the pipe. This is significant, because we discovered that with a magazine that will accept 3 inch shells, 5 rounds was the most we were able to get to feed reliably through the straight vertical mag well of the AR type receiver. If you reduce the shell requirement to 2-3/4 shells, you can accommodate some of the curve required to feed rimmed rounds within the confines of the existing mag well.
The Rhino also was functional a couple years ago, and I was told they just didn't have a reliable magazine design at the time. Now the company is having some struggles, so the shotgun was mothballed. I truly believe there will be an arms race on the AR shotgun concept in the very near future. Prize will go to the ones that make sure theirs is 100% reliable before they develop a reputation like the Saiga. That is why we have with-held a large volume launch of the COMP-12 until we trusted the magazines.
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Taccom still uses an adapter nut junction at the end of the factory length tube like the Nordic, but has modular extension segments beyond that. If you are trying to avoid that, the Xrail or Carbon Arms are what you are after. Both use a sleeve over a long main tube. I use the CarbonArms tube on the P3K Pat Kelley signature edition Stoeger, and it works well. The issue with Nordics usually stems from a concentricity problem on the adapter nut, rather than the tube itself. We use a threaded mandrel lathe fixture in the manufacture of our own proprietary adapter nut which ensures perfect concentricity between the two threads. This precludes this issue if you want to use a Nordic MXT style system with confidence. We have sold HUNDREDS of MXT extensions for Stoegers, and have had exactly two with follower hangup issues. One was caused by the end of the factory tube being egg-shaped from floor contact. The other had no bevel on the inside end of the tube, and the follower occasionally caught on the edge.
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I am not familiar with the mechanism on that shotgun, so I can't suggest a fix. I will say that in three years of matches, I have yet to see one on the line, so there is probably a reason no one is using them. There are lots of solid guns known to be well suited to the game. Go to some matches, and chances are most guys will let you test out their shotgun for a few minutes. Decide which you like best, and go from there.
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Perfect. Go shoot it.
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Thanks so much to all of you for your help and support! I am back in the shop today, trying to catch up on messages and emails. All four who were involved in the accident are OK, just a little beat up. I am hoping for some kind of a breakthrough before my scheduled surgery, because as of right now, we have no insurance. Apparently it is possible to have so little income that you don't qualify for Obamacare (because they expect you to be covered by your state's version of medicaid) but still not be covered under the state plan. So unless something changes in the next week, I will lose my slot for the surgery and go to the back of the 6 month wait list.......again.
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But, by the liberal worldview, guns are indeed subject to going off at random times in random directions outside the control of the user. So if you subscribe to the liberal mindset, all gun discharges are not the responsibility of the owner, but rather the gun itself is the cause of a discharge resulting in damage. It is an easy step to get from the responsibility-avoiding attitude so prevalent in our society to the idea that NDs are simply accidents
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It seems to me that in our emasculated, afraid to hurt people's feelings society that calling it a negligent discharge has the potential to make someone feel bad about themselves, hence the use of the word accidental. I personally thing that if someone does something stupid (like an ND), the embarrassment helps to sear the lesson into a permanent emotional scar, which helps reduce the likelihood of re-occurrence. It is true that they might get butt-hurt and quit shooting, but if they are putting people in danger and yet don't want to be called out on it they will continue to be a danger to others.
But then again, I got spanked as a child. Toughening up is a way of life when you grow up on a farm. Learn your lessons and become a better person.
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M3K is polished from the factory. If you are polishing an M3000 by hand you will want to go to at LEAST 320, 400 is better. Anything over that and the lube you put on it won't stay there. We lathe polish and then cross-hatch with scotch-brite like the cylinder walls on an engine rebuild.
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Sounds like Nate got his issue resolved, so I will thread drift slightly.
I have the exact opposite problem. I have a very tight barrel fit. Is it ok to use a soft face hammer to get the last quarter inch of the extension into the reciever?
As long as the crown is protected by a muzzle device of some kind (flash hider, etc), tapping it in the last 1/4 in or so with a dead-blow is perfectly acceptable
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REALLY??? I spent 5 minutes on the web trying to find that meme earlier today, and just got around to posting it. But somebody beat me to it!
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For 3gun nation matches they are almost a necessity, especially if you use a 90deg Cmore mount. I will admit that my first match with my new 2011 I stalled the slide once in a stage by running my thumb too high. BUT, so many stages in 3GN matches start chamber empty now (due to the possibility of going prone with a rifle if allowed) that fumbling around under the Cmore will kill your times. For USPSA matches where the only time you run the gun dry is when you make a mistake, I don't know that it makes that much difference. I can't reach my slide stop without changing my grip anyway, so I use high capacity followers that don't lock the slide back. So any time I accidentally run the gun dry I am fumbling for the serrations without a racker.
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Dang, that is a LOT of clearance. The Mil-Spec print for barrel extensions calls out a MINIMUM diameter of .9985. We manufactured them for a while during one of the shortages. That is WAY out of spec on BOTH parts. If they were my parts I would have returned them, if possible. Shimming is possible, but that is ridiculous.
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I don't remember you stopping by the shop, Dan, but it sounds like you have been here. The problem with being a perfectionist is that if it CAN be made perfect, it MUST be made perfect.
That is why I shall never be rich. -
Midwest gunworks also keeps them in stock, and processes orders much quicker than gunpartscorp. Your local gunsmith has probably removed DOZENS of broken taps, and might be convinced to do the job for a small fee.
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Happy Birthday! I have enjoyed your input on the forums, and our occasional chats. May the next year bring you happiness and health!
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On the guns I have loctited and then later dis-assembled, the Loctite activated thru contact with the barrel extension, but didn't bond to the upper. Keep in mind, though, that there are machining marks in the bore of the receiver, so the Loctite forms a MECHANICAL bond by filling the surface imperfections even if it doesn't glue the two together. So, after you knock the barrel out of the receiver with a hammer and a long rod to act as a makeshift punch, the Loctite stays stuck to the extension but not the receiver. My experience with Loctite and AR uppers is confined to Red (271).
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I keep waiting for them to put an articulating (pivoting) 2pc shell latch like the Stoeger in the Benelli. The aftermarket ought to pick it up if it isn't patent protected. Jesse Tischauser disagrees with me on this, but I think the Stoeger type is actually better than the original Benelli 1pc flexible steel part. Jesse told me he thinks the 2pc design is more prone to "death jams", but so far it hasn't ever given me any issues. Too bad they aren't interchangeable, or I would try the swap
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openclassterror
Do you feel a need to Loctite the extension on all installations or only if its a loose fit? Have you done tests to see if loctiting a tight extension effects accuracy or matters at all?
Thanks
I haven't tested the effects of Loctite on snug fitting extensions, because I don't want to fight it when the barrel has to come off. I use Loctite only as a bandaid fix on sloppy receivers. For several years now, I have just selected the best receivers for custom builds with our components and save the sloppy ones for Mil-spec type builds where I can torque the crap out of the castle nut. This plan doesn't work for the home-enthusiast, who can't pick through 20-50 uppers at a time for the good ones.
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With our hand guard design, we found that the least amount of torque that will stay tight through hot/cold cycles gives best accuracy, AS LONG AS THE BARREL EXTENSION FITS THE RECEIVER SNUGLY. If the extension fits like a hotdog in a hallway, either shim/ Loctite, or else you have to torque to 75+ to keep the barrel from squirming. If the extension fits, we torque to 35-40ft/lbs, using the tight, loose, tight, loose, torque it method. I use silver anti-seize on the threads. BUT, this is purely what testing showed on OUR handguard design. May not hold true for all, or even any, others. Remember that it is a V-thread, so once you exceed the modulus of elasticity for the wall thickness between the nut and the barrel, it actually starts collapsing and tightens the gap around the barrel extension. That is why a sloppy extension fit doesn't matter if you are going to torque it to the maximum. If you don't believe me, put a 1" stub where the extension goes, and use the nut to clamp a backwards extension in place (so you have the shoulder to torque against). It WILL clamp down on the 1" diameter once you have enough torque.
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What model is that? The shell latch, action bar and the sheet metal cup at the front of the receiver tell me it's NOT an M3000/ M3500. Is it an M2000?
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Not if you use it to buy drugs!
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On behalf of the mods, This isn't on the list of things you are, ah, allowed to hate.
I feel ya, but it's gonna get locked in a second or two
That is why I shall never be rich.
unloading M2- a Pain
in Shotgun - Technical
Posted
That is the main reason our extended latch is so much smaller and thinner than most of the others on the market. It is big enough to facilitate easy engagement, but not nearly as obtrusive as the factory M3K button, for instance