JayWord
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Posts posted by JayWord
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Did USPSA ever have black stripes on white targets for no shoots or is that an IPSC thing?
Back in the "old" days we used to do it. In fact I have a hardboard template we used for years hanging in my garage. It fell out of favor in USPSA once white backed targets were the rule rather than the exception. The primary reason was it was very easy to miss a no-shoot hit in the black.
At the IPSC Nationals we were told to put a red X on all the no-shoots. We will make a nice template for next year.
Jay
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Thats what I read too, but wasn't sure if it was "allowed" as some things are at a level 1 match.
Rule 4.6.1.1 does not allow the use of stage guns in handgun matches. This rule removed all officer down and other type stages.
Jay
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It has been a pretty common theme at matches, both big and small, that no matter how out of line the popper looks, the RO will not touch it until it fails to go down and fails a calibration.
I'm not going to search the rule book to see if that is written there or not, but I can tell you that I have been told that by multiple RO's at multiple matches that that is the/their policy.
If you are a RM and you have a policy that allows ro's to proactively set and reset poppers, then bravo, but how is that equitable for the guy who was last to shoot it before the resetting. Maybe he got an edge or low hit that would send it down if it were reset just before his run.
I think that the policy of not changing the settings until it fails is the only fair way to do it. It does suck when the popper falls into the range where the first hit moves it a little (enough that the calibration hit sends it down). I just don't know how to make it fair otherwise. Maybe if they reset it to exactly the same pressure between each and every shooter.....not really feasible either.
I think Nik stated pretty well. There has been a misconception that you cannot maintain your poppers without RM intervention.That is incorrect. (see 4.6.1) In the current RO courses we discuss this misconception. It is the duty of the range officer to present as best they can a fair and equitable playing field for all competitors. Making sure your steel is properly maintained is part of the concept of stage ownership. Taking the time to check your steel before it fails and potentially causing a reshoot is part of keeping a level playing field.
The primary issue I see out in the country is most club level matches do not have 115-125 calibration ammo or if they do, they do not use it. In the distant past when minor was rarely shot, i.e. before production became more popular, this was not an issue. It has become one.
My unwritten policy is to set steel as light as it will stay up in the wind. Yes occasionally a competitor may end up dropping a popper with a weeny edge hit, but in the long run if they are running at the edge of their skill set, it will be reflected in their overall scores. D and MIsses really hurt when shooting minor.
This is only my opinion.
Jay Worden
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I think Jay Worden said his favorite range command was something like "Pull it, stick it, stroke it, and smoke it."
I try my best to give the proper commands from the USPSA rulebook. I fumble sometimes, because "Load and make ready" was the command given when I was a n00b many, many years ago.
The only thing I'll say is that doing things a certain way will make that a habit. If you try some variation of "pull it, stick it, etc." at a Level II or higher match, you won't be asked back. I've only RO'd one Level II match, but I plan to do more in the future. I'd like to be asked back, so I try to get it right all the time.
As far as correcting the other ROs? Meh. I might give the guy a hard time, like the one time someone told me to "Load and make ready" and I asked him if we were remaking "Triple Tap," but other than that, I'll let it slide--as long as all of the safety rules are observed.
Jees, if you are going to toss me under the bus please use the right bad range commands. "Poke it, stroke it, flick it, stick it!"
Anyone who has worked with me knows I hate bad range commands. It comes from my first CRO at the Nationals in 1991, Loren Orpwood, who would make me yell the right commands between squads when I screwed up. I never had an issue after that.
Proper range commands are important. Proper ROing is more important. Bad range commands are an "education" issue and should be done in private after the fact. Maybe, they have never been taught correctly. In clubs where multiple disciplines are nromally held, I have found Range commands can be an issue. A card with the correct commands taped to the timer or put in the range bucket so the RO can review can be useful. That is why I did up my range cards many years ago.
Jay
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They teach college courses online now every day. If I can take differential equations online then USPSA can teach an online RO course. It's not rocket surgery but since the guys who teach the course make a decent amount traveling around teaching how to be a timer stand I doubt that will happen.
Sir,
I think you have the NROI staff confused with some other group. All USPSA Instructors are volunteers. We get paid nothing to come and teach. The only thing USPSA covers is our travel expenses at cost. The clubs have to put us up and take care of our meals.
One of the other posters made a comment about the range exercise being a waste of time in the Level 1 course. For experienced persons who have been running shooters correctly it is a bit simplistic, but still useful. (Range commands, I could tell you stories!) However, a large number of the students are pretty new and only when under the controlled exercise does issues like range commands and positioning show up. The other issue is scoring targets, you would not believe some of the nonsense some of the studetns have been exposed to at the club levels.
I guess I will take that USPSA GM online course next.
Jay Worden NROI-RMI
These comments are only mine and not offical USPSA policy.
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I think there is a big difference between an RO the wrong phrasing "Are you ready" vs "Shooter Ready" and an RO using completely inappropriate commands "Load it up". I know I learned one set of commands and when tired or rushed often will fall back to that set of phrasing vs the current set.
So to answer the question.... yes, say something. But temper what you say to the situation. If the phrasing is just wrong, be gentle. If the command is inappropriate, then be firm. And always if its above a Level 1 match. ROs should always use the correct current commands, even at level 1 matches. But we are only human.
And yes, I have been known to tell a friend as the last shooter on the last stage of a club match "Put bullets in the darn thing and lets shoot so we can go home".
I love slide forward; I then slide forward as far as I can go until stopped.
I have been known to hand out cards to RO's with bad commands, but that's just me.Jay
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I bet a dollar the match will be 6 neutral.
I shot the 2013 Nationals and they were not 6 shot neutral and I will take that bet for the 2014 Nationals. If they do it like this last year, the stages will be the same ones Single-Stack shoots, with maybe a few extra targets thrown in to bump the round count and add some challenge. If it is six shot neutral, it is not worth going. My .02.
If I have any imput, it will not be 6 then 6 then 6, that is not the real world for revolver shooters in the real world.
Jay 2013 REV. Nat'ls RM
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Nice way to crowdsource an exam answer....
I was thinking that myself, but I was too nice to say so.
Jay
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Before, this gets out of hand you might want to discuss the outcome of a missed squib with one of the shooters on Saturday at the SS.
Neither the shooter or RO heard it due to the wall configuration. Next round split the hood and locked up the gun tight. We measured the distance and determined there was no live round in the chamber and the shooter is now out a destroyed barrel and maybe a gun once his gunsmith pounds/beats the gun apart.
Luckly, no one was hurt, but that is why we take squibs so seriously.5.7.4 states the competitor, not the competitor and the rest of his squad, has 2 minutes to fix the issue.
8.6.2.1 was added to allow assistance to newer shooters without penalty. Therefore, if the shooter is not a newer shooter he ishould not be entitled to assistance from anyone except for safety even in a Level 1 match.
The above is my opinion.
Jay
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Hmm,
I find situations like this interesting. Shooting supine was very common in the past and is allowed under our rules if done safely. In point of fact it was commonly done when 50 yards standards were shot at the Nationals.
If the shooter sweep himself while going into that position then a DQ was warranted. The forbidden action is not.
Jay
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RTR,
I agree if you would like to shoot stages like that it might be cool. However, if you are trying to run a major match with 12-18 stages with several hundred shooters, it will quickly not become cool. Please remember you only have to shoot it once the staff have to run all those shooters. The only thing we have no control over is time and daylight. I have worked matches that had to throw out stages because they could not be finished by all the shooters in the time allowed.
If you like lots of high count stages, shoot the Florida Open 10 stages 300 plus rounds. Meets the rules and still gives you a real challange.
Jay
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Just a little context. The power factors went from 1986- 170 USPSA (175 for International) to 1990-175 back down to 165 with te 2000 rulebook. I was told when I first started it was 180, but I cannot find a rulebook with that PF. That would have been in the early 1980's. The drop to 165 solved some issues with high pressure loads in the 9x21/38 super. Also, there was a lot of factory 40 S&W that would not make major at 175. This was the era when many shooters were using 200 to 220 grain bullets in 40s.
Jay
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Thanks Chuck, but I really wanted the RM to cite the rule he used to support the lack of action. 6.3.1 does not apply since this infraction would either be a move to open or a DQ based on the RM's determination (there are rules for both of those). 8.8.3 is when a "competitor" detects an error, not the RM, so that does not apply either.
Mark,
Sorry about the delay, but I normally do not monitor the BE forum on a regular basis. Chuck's citation 8.8.3 is the one that applies in my opinion. Matches have the one hour waiting limit to allow issues to be resolved. As Linda stated we did not hear from anyone until we were sitting at the Awards.
As far as whether a RM could take action after that point, 12.1.6 limits the RM's authority to persons and activities within the range and application of rules. 8.8.3 ended the period for any appeals and the results were final at that point. The RM's authority ended with the final results being posted.
Since your question has been answered, it would not be appropraite for me to continue in this conversation.
Jay
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To answer several questions.
1. No chrono as it is not required under time plus scoring.
2. Limited Rifle allows one non-magnifying optic, HM limited does not.
3. Once the one hour score review period is up the scores are final and cannot be appealed.
Yes, maybe a RO should have caught it, but people change divisions after the labels are printed for a variety of reasons. Also, if the shooter thought he was following he rules, he may have told a RO he was in compliance if asked. If the staff would have been informed anytime during the match the shooter would have been properly placed in Open. That did not happen until it was way too late to resolve under the rules.
Jay Worden RM2 USPSA MG Nationals.
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I have been using a Model B thumbler for many years. The only thing I have had to replace was the drive belts. I am on my fourth one. I do not want to even estimate how many rounds I have cleaned over the years. It was designed to do rock polishing and can run hours and hours. I have started it and left it running for 36 hours by accident and it just keeps working.
Jay
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A problem I can envision with the third party appeal is what about all of the other shooters who got dinged with the same penalties? Do they therefor toss the stage? Go through and try to correct all of the other score sheets? Order everyone who got dinged for excess procedurals to reshoot the stage? Alter the one sheet and let the others just eat the penalties?
\Please review 11.6.2. Any decision is not retroactive and can only apply in the future. Sucks sometimes, but it is very hard to go back and try to make corrections after the fact.
Jay
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RIP Russ. I hear the Golf courses are very nice in heaven.
I've had the pleasure of knowing Russ since the early '90's. Damn....that's a long time ago. He was very devoted to USPSA competiton, he served as IL section coordinator for many years. He and Richard Heinie are the ones responsible for getting the 1911 Single Stack Society up and running. I will miss seeing Russ at the SSC.
I am not sure if it was Russell who referred to Practical shooting as Golf with guns. I will miss Russell, he was such a part of the Single Stack Classic that last year just didn't feel right without him. We have all lost a great person way too young. Go in peace and see if Sam Snead needs another for his foursome.
Jay
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Obviously, the classic target is no such thing.
A "classic " target would be the Florida 8, Milpark, or Item target.
As far as the metric target was concerned, it was initially referred to as the Brussels target because that is the World Assembly where it was adopted. It replaced all the "classic targets". Unless we want to redo all the dies in the Country, I have no real issue with Metric target. If you are really serious, call it the USPSA Target, but leave the design alone.
My main issue is the US popper should be called that, not a "mini-popper". Too many guys seeing an Austin Powers Movie I guess. Mini-meeeeeeee!
Jay
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I was not there.. so all I can state is what I heard. I heard the r/o asked if the safety was on, the boy looks at the gun and replies, yes it is on. Was it verified, I do not know. But a couple of guys that said they saw the whole thing said the safety was on. Again, I was not there.
Correction: One was Dq'd while still under the make ready. Several people that witnessed this were talking about it. And I heard the whole thing is on video but I doubt we see it. Too bad no one helped the boy arb it.
There were a couple of DQ's for setting your loaded gun down on the table starts with no safety on, but they were dq'd after MR and before start signal
What is the difference? Did the boy set the gun down on the table without the safety applied?
The CRO for the stage stated the safety was off and was 100% sure he made the correct call. That was good enough for me. Going to arbitration would have just added to the shooters grief and cost him $100. As I told him, use it as a learning experience.
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Yep, any hit on a plate and it must fall, if it does not then its classified as Range Equipment Failure and an automatic reshoot.
That was a good summary of the action, including the now infamous DQ.
I wonder if there was any grumbling to the match director and range master about that stage's design before Rob's DQ.
Funny not a word. Most people thought it was a fun stage.
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+2, I now have 2. I replaced a Helwig belt I used everyday for uniform wear for 15 years. Great belts and great customer service.
Jay
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Try and get the 5 minute rule to stick!
And to think people here claim there isn't an advantage to being on the SS...
It's well-known that the SS is slow. I wonder why that would be? It could be that they get extra time on the walkthrough (according to my stopwatch they do), and they get more leeway on load and make ready.
If anything, given that each of them runs each stage a few seconds faster than anyone else they should be the fastest squad at the match, but the opposite is the case.
I can see that in certain circumstances shooting with rivals is a detriment, but in virtually all other ways being on the SS is an advantage.
I really do not want to get into this, but......... 5 minutes on the clock means that on my stages. Many squads do not take the full 5 minutes. They are slower because they are usually the largest squads in the match. For example, if normal squads are 10-12 the SS run 13-14 shooters. I always thought I had a lot to do with the press. For what its worth, I feel they are the easiest squads in the match to run. They tape and set steel, unlike some of the prima donnas out there.
This is only my opinion. -
Wow-DQ city on day one. Wtf?
Whoa! That's a lot of DQ's. Wonder why.
While there were more DQ's than I would have liked, without exception every DQ was related to shooter actions or inactions. Several ADs while reloading, mostly shotgun related, 2-180 violations, one on a very bad handgun reload, the second when the shooter caught his long gun on a wall during movement and it jerked the muzzle around. Several abandoned firearm issues, one a jamb with the gun still loaded and the safety unable to be applied since the slide was not in battery, the second the slide locked back and the competitor assumed he was out of ammo, he was incorrect. An abandoned loaded rifle with the safety not on.
The only one that was a bit of a heart breaker was a competitor pre-loading his shotgun without RO supervision. This was caused by poor judgement of another competitor who told the DQ'ed competitor to start pre-loading while the rest of the squad was in the midst of the walk through.
The staff worked with the competitors to make sure the whole long gun transport, carrying and flagging issues were a non-issue.
In general it was a very safe match and while I hate any DQ, safety is always going to be the most important issue at any match.
Jay 2012 MG RM
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What if the malfunction caused you to break the 180, or drop the handgun. Would you still think there was a contradiction?
Sorry, that is a faulty analogy. What possible malfunction could cause a 180 break at the "Make Ready"?
About half of the 180 violations I've seen have been during remedial actions.
That said I'm pretty sure there used to be a rule regarding firearm malfunctions causing an AD. That rule was removed to eliminate this exact scenario. There is no conflict. A DQ supersedes all. Period.
A provision in the 2004 and earlier editions of the rulebook had the "broken gun Alibi" under the AD section. Specifically rule 10.4.9. This section was intentionally removed in the 2008 Edition of the rule book. This thread shows why that was done.
I have been known to hand out cards to RO's with bad commands, but that's just me.
Luckly, no one was hurt, but that is why we take squibs so seriously.
How Do You RO A Deaf Shooter
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
Guys, I have found this thread very interesting and may lift some the ideas and place them in the revised CRO program. The flag idea is interesting, but it would be so rarely used, I would be reluctant to add to the rules. I would however, be willing to use if a profoundly deaf shooter kept one with his gun bag and gave it to me.
I have run a lot of hard of hearing shooters over the years and the tap-start method seem to work really well.
Thoughts?
Jay
Jay