Hotchkiss

Thanks for the outline. Now very specifically what would you do in this exact situation where the shooter is not complying with the required start position, is reminded and then directed to do so and become verbally combative saying they cannot assume the position when it's very clear they can? What then? In the case I experienced, I repeated the instruction 2-3 final times, they came close to assuming the required start position (there was clearly some gaming still going on because they had pretty much already assumed the correct position in their previous run) and I started them. In retrospect maybe I shouldn't have. But then what? Send them to the end of the line? Call for the MD?

It was my first as well... At least a dozen others had to be reminded. When they were, they immediately "assumed the position" without further problems. Some (non-gamers) were actually having trouble with the position and they were thankful for taking a bit extra time and showing them what was expected.

It is indeed important to know the rules, I have the rulebook but my question was more about interpreting said rules and how specifically to deal with a problematic shooter. In a USPSA environment what would an RSO do if a competitor was gaming on the start? Would they be absolutely by the book at posting #9 suggested (which is definitely my inclination) or would they have some level (no matter how large or small) of tolerance? The real question should be what does the rulebook allow. No. What the rulebook allows is indeed important. I am however curious how experienced RSOs would actually deal with this issue? I suspect some would repeat the instruction while giving a visual and if the shooter didn't comply, they would immediately call for the MD. I suspect others would have the shooter unload and go to the end of the squad's line to think about things. Still others might be satisfied if a gamer was "close enough" to keep things moving and/or avoid the emotions. I suspect others could be extremely harsh in yet other ways. Continuing to reference the rule book in no way addresses this.

It is indeed important to know the rules, I have the rulebook but my question was more about interpreting said rules and how specifically to deal with a problematic shooter. In a USPSA environment what would an RSO do if a competitor was gaming on the start? Would they be absolutely by the book at posting #9 suggested (which is definitely my inclination) or would they have some level (no matter how large or small) of tolerance?

Why make comments like this when it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about? Both Steel Challenge (for rimfire shooters) and NSSF Rimfire Challenge begin at "low ready" which means gun in hand -- typically pointed at something or with other directions such as the ones I noted. Why make comments like this? Because you posted a generic question on a forum that is at least 80% USPSA oriented.What's your next question? Something like what gun is best? Good luck getting help after this DH I posted this question on "General Match Issues" and not the USPSA forum. Your "RO class" comment was rude. Do me a favor simply ignore any other posts I might place in the future. Thanks in advance.

I have not snapped back at everyone that has given input. That's simply not true. You assumed it was a USPSA match and you assumed the WSB was in error which they were not. I responded directly because I didn't want the thread to be further derailed. My question has more to do with strict adherence to the rules in a specific situation than the rules themselves. More specifically I was curious if most here would look past what they felt was an infraction of an increasingly agitated shooter or would they force the shooter to comply and how exactly would they go about it? Posting #9 said "...Parallel is parallel, otherwise you will be cutting the first guy some slack, the second guy a bit more and where does it end?..." and I tend to strongly agree. I was just curious about the views of others who have RSOed here?

What are you talking about? There were no "mistakes" in the WSB of the stage I was ROing. Please don't try to inject extraneous/false information into the question I asked. In retrospect I only had two other options. Either start adding 2 second procedural penalties to each run (which would have ruined this stage for that shooter), or I could have unloaded them (perfectly within the power of the RO at that match), gave them time to reflect and hoped for the best. What you were describing didn't sound like a false start which would warrant the +2 ("3.5.6 A false start will incur a 2-second penalty.") Looks like you could move them down though as you suggested: "7.2.3 If the participant is not prepared and it would cause a severe delay while they prepare, the RSO may move them down in the shooting order until they are prepared." More here. I think you instruct them on where they are not correct and wait for them to assume the position. "8.1 Range Commands 8.1.1 “Shooter Load and Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of the course of fire. Under the direct supervision of the RSO, the participant must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the RSO, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. The participant must then assume the required start position. At this point, the RSO will proceed." There are other ways to incur a 2 second procedural penalty in addition to a false start, hence my question. This shooter's gaming was worth at least .05/run, and possibly as much as .15/run. Even though they were static, they were already in a position that would have required motion if they were actually complying to the stage description starting point. During that match, the RSO certainly could have told the shooter to unload, show clear, secure their firearm and then step out of the box. Had the shooter not yet fired for that stage, I would have done just that. Had they not settled down at that point, I would have quietly summoned the MD/RM. FWIW, probably a dozen or more shooters played the game of "elbows against gut" or "elbows spread like wings" until they were cautioned, where each and every one of them then magically (and instantly) assumed the precise position of the stage description. It was this one individual shooter that gave me pause. Based on their score, I suspect they were rattled to boot.

That's why I posted it here (General Match Issues) and not in the USPSA or other specific match forums.

Why make comments like this when it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about? Both Steel Challenge (for rimfire shooters) and NSSF Rimfire Challenge begin at "low ready" which means gun in hand -- typically pointed at something or with other directions such as the ones I noted.

Indeed.

What are you talking about? There were no "mistakes" in the WSB of the stage I was ROing. Please don't try to inject extraneous/false information into the question I asked. In retrospect I only had two other options. Either start adding 2 second procedural penalties to each run (which would have ruined this stage for that shooter), or I could have unloaded them (perfectly within the power of the RO at that match), gave them time to reflect and hoped for the best.

No, it was not. It was an NSSF Rimfire Challenge match. It was most certainly a legal starting position.

How strict and "tough" are you with "gamers" when ROing a stage at a match? It's been my experience that the very best competitors (those you read about on-line) and those close to their level are very easy going and compliant. They intently listen to the stage description and then go to it. Those at lower levels are very much the same. It's a handful in the middle -- the "gamers" I like to call them, which test my patience the most. I was ROing a stage that began with a modified low-ready -- elbows against sides and arms parallel with the ground. Fairly straight forward but different than any other stage that day. It was a big deal because this was an extremely fast stage. It was clearly documented on the stage description that was clearly posted. The gamers were trying to extend their arms as much as possible -- elbows against their guts, etc. Almost all immediately found their sides with their elbows after I reminded them one or more times. One in particular though was emotional and rude. I was tempted to direct them to unload and show clear and then direct them to then review the stage description while the rest of the squad cycled through where they could then complete the stage. How would you have handled it? This shooter wasn't all that competitive from a match placement standpoint so I got them to get close to the start position and went from there. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

Which type of sights are best for Steel Challenge-type shooting with a rimfire rifle? Obviously I need something that is fastest to acquire a target. I also would want to use fiber optics. Would it be a ghost ring or a buckhorn or a...? Thanks for all inputs.

Thanks. Please keep us informed. As a Benelli insider, can you reveal if there are any real differences between the Benelli and Stoeger Inertial Operating Systems? Thanks again. Off the top of my head. The action spring is not behind the receiver. It is wrapped around the magazine tube. The M3000 appears to be a significant quality level above the M2000. The junction of the forend and receiver is smooth with no FN SLP or Versa Max "Step" that has to be cut away. It accepts Benelli Super Nova tube extensions. I think it is going to be hard to beat as a under $500 power tool. Thanks again for your insight. For what it's worth, you're by far my favorite 3-Gun pro. Good luck with your competitive shooting...

Indeed. I cannot find a company that makes a mag extensions for the M3000. Several make them for the M2000, but not the M3000 -- yet.

Thanks. Please keep us informed. As a Benelli insider, can you reveal if there are any real differences between the Benelli and Stoeger Inertial Operating Systems? Thanks again.

Can anyone here give me some input on using the Stoeger M3000 as a beginner getting involved with 3-Gun? While it's made in Turkey and not Italy, at around $450.00 is seems like a tremendous buy compared to the Benellis which share the Inertial Operating System. It comes in a 26" barrel which would be legal for 3-Gun matches here locally. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

Are you shooting open or limited? What's the sight radius on the M&P? It might be a bit short for a limited gun. Also, the reason the Rugers are so ubiquitous is because they are the most reliable...

Thanks very much I appreciate the input.

Those that won medals at trap shooting (men's) at the 2012 Olympics wore fingerless gloves and it didn't appear to be cold.

I think something along the lines of Steel Challenge would be good. Long range rifle would terribly boring to watch. 3-gun would be great but it would be difficult for spectators to know what the score was, real time. I would like to see a Steel challenge format where two individuals shoot against one another. Though it would still have to be timed to negate "photo finishes", spectators and TV viewers would immediately know who won each string. Sad to say in many countries it would be difficult for competitors to get their hands on the required hardware to practice...

A Humerus Flowchart Designed to Help You Choose a New Handgun...

Sure they are...

Thanks much!