Warhammer4k

I wish the problem were so simple. But I've been using a two-scale setup for the past couple of years: a Hornady electronic scale for spot-checking powder throws, and a Redding mechanical scale to make sure the electronic scale is up to snuff. The mechanical scale gets verified with check weights at least once a year, and I re-zero it at the start of every reloading session. Basically, there's no way I'm throwing charges light enough to make a difference. If I were off by a grain or two, it would be obvious by now. Same deal with the chronograph. I have no means to verify its readings of course, but I get about what the data says I should get. Blue Dot does perform notably better than Bullseye, giving me 1200 ft/s average with the same bullet that I can only safely push to about 1080 ft/s with Bullseye. That's why this is such a big mystery. By "doesn't work" of course I mean the gun simply won't run on non-Bullseye loads. I've had threads about it in the past so maybe I'll link to one of those rather than do a complete re-hash. Short 'n' sweet: the jams are always the same, with the cartridge jamming against the chamber roof when it should be feeding. It's absolutely impossible for me to understand how jams like that can happen with BOTH recoil spring weights. If slide velocity is too high, the stronger spring should make things work. If slide velocity is too low with the extra-power spring, using the factory spring should make things work. I haven't put much factory ammo through the gun, because commercial 10mm is just too dang expensive. I've shot maybe 200 rounds of factory ammo through the gun ever, without a single problem. Of course that was all using the stock Glock barrel. It's possible that what I really have is a problem with the Lone Wolf replacement barrel, though I can't see how. It doesn't have any burrs or irregularities that should cause a problem, and like I said, it feeds and fires Bullseye loads flawlessly. It probably sounds like I'm making this all up, but it's just one of those weird things that happen sometimes in real life.

Note: Threads merged - Admin. In a nutshell, my Glock 20 will ONLY work with reloads made using Bullseye powder. Over the past few years, I've changed just about every stinking thing possible in an attempt to get it to run on my 10mm reloads, including at least: -barrel. Started using a Lone Wolf Distributors replacement barrel both because it made me less nervous about shooting cast lead, and because it's easier on the brass than the stock chamber. -bullets. You name it I've tried it: cast lead, 155 to 180 grains; plated, 180 to 220 grains; Montana Gold CMJ 180 grain. -Powders. Accurate Arms #9, IMR 800X, Alliant Blue Dot, Alliant Bullseye. -brass: New and previously-reloaded Starline. Once-fired Federal and Winchester. -primers: Remington 2 1/2, Winchester Large Pistol, Federal #150 and #155. -recoil spring: Both the original one (which is around 17 lb.) and a 22 lb. aftermarket one including a solid metal guide rod (from Wolff Gunsprings). The only constant? Reloads made with Bullseye just work. Other powders don't. Bullseye is perhaps not an ideal 10mm powder, but it's the only thing that will work in my Glock 20 so far. Go figure. Anyone else have a gun, 10mm or otherwise, that is this finicky?

I don't know about the other brands - KKM, Bar-Sto, Storm Lake etc. - but the Lone Wolf Distributing barrel I bought for my Glock 20 has a groove diameter of 0.401". That's fine and dandy when I shoot FMJ or plated bullets, but seems to cause leading with cast lead bullets. Is there an aftermarket barrel with a 0.400" groove diameter? I wouldn't think that would cause problems with FMJ or plated bullets, which are normally right at 0.400" or 0.4005". A tighter bore might solve my problem with .401" cast lead bullets. It may prove easier to buy a new barrel than to obtain cast lead bullets in 0.402" diameter. I've been shopping around, but can't find anyone offering 0.402" cast lead as anything but a one-off, large-purchase-required option. I'm not really interested in casting my own. If I can't find either a suitable barrel or suitable bullets, I'll probably switch to relatively affordabe FMJ bullets, like Montana Gold or Precision Delta.

I'm glad I stumbled on this thread. I've become fed up with cast lead for various reasons, plated didn't work out either, and so I was preparing to spend a lot more for FMJ. I had my eye on Montana Golds (15¢/bullet for 1000) until I looked at Precision Delta's prices, which are significantly cheaper in "small" quantities (e.g. 11.8¢/bullet for 1000) for a 180 gr., FMJ bullet. The Precision Delta 180 gr. FMJ is in fact the same price as Rainier's plated offering in the same weight, even with "dealer" pricing at MidwayUSA. 180 gr. is my chosen weight simply because...well, because. Because I've worked up a lot of loads with that weight bullet and different powders, I suppose. It's a good weight for both .40 S&W and 10mm. I don't know anyone locally who shoots Deltas, but am asking around. also: 30 ft/s variation in pistol loads is nothing. I would hardly look twice at 50 ft/s variation. But it depends on a lot of things. Using all the same brand brass, for example, seems to make a little difference. Being super-precise on your COAL's and powder charges would make things more consistent. But I've yet to demonstrate to myself that even 50 ft/s velocity swings make any real difference in accuracy. Then again, I'm probably not a good enough shot to notice, and I don't own any "target" handguns.

I had the same experience a few years ago, trying to use 180 gr. Rainier plated bullets in my Glock 20. Different cartridge (10mm), but it struck me that I also could not get the darn things to run. They were constantly misfeeding, getting jammed up against the chamber roof. I had pretty much the same problem with some 220 gr. plated bullets (West Coast Bullet brand) in the same gun. I tried everything imaginable to get the gun to run: new 10mm brass, variations on powder charge, taper crimp, cartridge overall length, different recoil spring, you name it. It simply wouldn't work. Had pretty much exactly the same problem as with the 180 gr. Rainiers. Are you using the plated Xtreme bullets, or one of their cast lead offerings? After going through all the misery trying to get plated bullets to work in my Glock 20, I finally found some cast 170 gr. cast lead bullets that make it run like a top.

Agreed. I'm approaching this from a different place from most, as I originally bought a U-die to help with my 10mm reloading. What I found is that the U-die doesn't size far enough down the case to "un-Glock" 10mm brass. Even with the U-die touching the shell plate on my Hornady Lock 'n' Load AP, there is still a length of brass that does not get (under)sized. Same deal on my Rockchucker. Must be something fundamentally different about the "Glock bulge" on .40 S&W brass. With some "Glocked" 10mm brass, the U-die created an ugly "shelf" effect in the location described above. I am slowly filtering these cases out of my brass supply. They often will not fully enter a tighter-than-usual chamber, such as the chamber of the Lone Wolf barrel I use with my Glock 20. Not only that, but I am concerned that the extreme working of the brass in that location makes these cases unsafe for further use. As for .40 S&W, I have not found it necessary to use the U-die. Most of my .40 S&W brass has never been Glocked. The rest has been sufficiently reformed with a standard size die plus Lee factory crimp die. Hope that made sense. My purpose is not to poo-poo the results some have had with the U-die, just to note that it isn't a cure-all.

Happy news: The leading isn't as bad as I feared, and I found another load that makes my Glock 20 run like the well-oiled machine that it is. I made 150 rounds with the 180 gr. Missouri bullets, 6.3-6.4 gr. Bullseye (the powder measure does throw + or - 0.1, near as I can tell), and a combination of Winchester Large Pistol and Federal Magnum Large Pistol (#155) primers. COAL was, as usual, 1.250"-1.260" with typical rounds at 1.253" (COAL tolerance in progressive reloading probably deserves its own thread somewhere!). I lost count because I was having so much fun, but I think I fired at least half of them - figure 5 magazines full. Not a single malfunction. Used the original recoil spring, as it was evident from earlier testing that the 22 lb. aftermarket spring was too much. I'm flattered by the obvious amount of research & effort you guys have put into this thread. Thanks especially for the explanation of the reasoning behind WSF being better for lead than some powders. As well as Blue Dot being better for FMJ. I find that Blue Dot is pretty darn good for plated bullets as well, although my Glock 20 doesn't like any loads with Blue Dot (so far). More later, going to shoot some sporting clays now.

Seriously, you haven't presented any reason that powder selection has anything to do with anything. Nor should it, the powder has no way of "knowing" what kind of bullet it's propelling. I'm not going to "get rid of" two powders that have always worked well for me - including with cast lead, just not these particular bullets.

Loaded up some Missouri bullets with Blue Dot and got to the range yesterday. The good news: Charges from 9.2 to 10.2 grains appear to be safe. Even at the top end, the primers remained nice and round-looking. No signs of excessive pressure. Again, Blue Dot is a nice 10mm powder. The bad news: I still got leading down the whole length of the barrel. However...I'm not sure, but I think perhaps the amount of lead deposited was less than with Bullseye. Will have to shoot some more of both (Bullseye and Blue Dot) loads and photograph the bore to be sure. More bad news: It was too late in the day, so my Chrony only worked for the first few shots. The 9.2 gr. Blue Dot loads were producing at least 1100 ft/s, so I'm sure the hotter loads (9.6 and 10.2 gr.) were doing well also. But I'm pretty sure the readings I got at that point (>1500 ft/s!) were erroneous. Still more bad news: None of the Missouri Bullets loads w/Blue Dot cycled my Glock 20 consistently. Lots of failures to feed. It almost looked like the slide was either not opening all the way, or by the same token closing on the rounds before they could feed up out of the magazine. Possible complicating factor: I was using a 22 lb. recoil spring. Going to try it again with the Blue Dot loads and the original (17#) recoil spring. Note that through all of this testing, I use a Lone Wolf replacement barrel. I clean it between sessions with a Tetra lead remover cloth, which works remarkably well in getting the lead out. A few strokes with that and the bore is nearly pristine again.

So I loaded up some .40 S&W rounds with the discussed Missouri bullets. Shot 45 of them yesterday in a S&W M&P. Velocity at ~10 ft (standard Chrony distance) was about 1020 ft/s. That's a little on the "hot" side, and although the primers were nice and rounded, I believe I'll dial the powder back for the next batch. More importantly, leading was not too bad. Light to moderate at worst, and mostly in the first third of the barrel. I checked leading after firing 10 rounds for chronographing, then shot the next 30 or so into a fresh paper target. No keyholes at ~10 yards, so the leading apparently wasn't enough to affect accuracy, at least not at that point. Today, I slugged a couple of bores. Slugging of the Lone Wolf 10mm barrel went smoothly - suspiciously so! - but I have no useful data yet. I believe my dial caliper is worn out, and is no longer giving consistently accurate answers. Will have to get a new set of calipers before I can measure anything & draw conclusions. Lone Wolf claims "Tighter than factory spec dimensions" for their replacement Glock barrels. We'll see whether that applies to bore diameter. update: Got a new dial caliper. Brand is Lyman but it is almost identical to the dial caliper I replaced. Except of course that the new one works. They are $26 Chinamart calipers, so I checked them against both a dial caliper of a different brand, and an old US-made micrometer. Looks like the Lone Wolf barrel has a minimum groove diameter of 0.401". I guess that explains the severe leading. The Missouri bullets aren't quite spot-on either. The 4th decimal place is mostly guesswork, but it looks like they're somewhere between 0.401" and 0.402" diameter. It's not worth the hassle to either try to locate 0.402" bullets, or wax the existing stock. I will probably bite the bullet (so to speak) and pay up for FMJ bullets for 10mm (e.g. Montana Gold). They only cost a fraction of a penny more per bullet than Lasercast, and eliminate the possibility of leading.

I suppose I'll use the Missouri bullets for .40 S&W. Perhaps they are hard enough for the lower velocities (900-1000 ft/s).

A frequent recommendation is to replace the Chrony's aluminum rods with wooden dowels. They are much cheaper to replace, and will break away without much chance of damaging the attachment points (plastic) in the Chrony. Nice idea, but I couldn't find any properly-sized dowels locally. They were all either too small or too large. It turns out that welding rod comes in just the right size (about 0.160" diameter). I bought 4 pieces of this welding rod, cut them to 16" lengths so the plastic diffusers would fit, and rounded off the ends with a grinder. They work great, but I'm not sure what would happen if I did hit a rod. Possibly Bad Things, due to the stiffness of welding rod compared to either aluminum or wood. However, now that I have two complete sets of cheap replacement rods, it seems to have guaranteed that I will never again hit a rod. I only was able to do that when I was using the original, expensive-to-replace aluminum rods.

What bullet hardness is required to prevent or at least minimize leading in 10mm? I seem to have trouble finding a cast lead bullet that is hard enough. Yesterday I tested some loads with Missouri Bullet Co's 180 gr. offering (item IDP #5), in the following combinations: Mixed 10mm brass, Winchester large pistol primer, COAL 1.250"-1.260" Alliant Bullseye: 6.0 gr., 6.2 gr., 6.4 gr. I only fired 30 rounds (10 of each level of powder charge), but the Lone Wolf barrel in my Glock 20 is now heavily leaded. Not quite "looks like a smoothbore," but there is obvious buildup in all grooves, almost the entire length of the barrel. I saw much the same thing in my S&W 610 revolver. While it's easy to clean up lead afterwards, the lead accumulated so quickly that I probably would have seen keyholing and reduced accuracy by the end of a typical match. These bullets are stated to have a hardness rating of 18 BHN. Muzzle velocities averaged from 1125 ft/s (6.0 gr. Bullseye) to 1174 ft/s (6.4 gr. Bullseye) from the Glock 20. No flattened primers or other signs of excessive pressure. Do I need harder bullets? A different powder? It is easy to imagine how excessive velocity could cause bore leading, but the effect of powder choice is less clear. I also considered Oregon Trail's Lasercast bullets, which are stated to have a rating of 24 BHN. They are more expensive accordingly, but maybe the extra money is necessary for 10mm loads.

For this reason, I've been kicking around the idea of asking my local bullet caster to make my next batch with no lube. I would then apply moly coating myself, using a tumbler. Supposedly, that is one way to do it. I don't like the waxy lube both because of the smoke when shooting, and because of the residue that builds up in the seating & crimping dies in my reloading equipment. The wax also leaves gunky residue inside my guns, sometimes to the point of affecting function. So I'm interested in switching to moly if reasonably practical. Another lead-related note: On Friday I used a Kleenbore Lead-Away cloth to get the lead out of all my .40 caliber guns. I was skeptical, because there are plenty of other "lead removal" products that don't really work. The Lead-Away cloth actually worked surprisingly well, almost as well as my Lewis Lead Remover. The Lead-Away is a much cheaper solution, given that you don't have to shell out most of $20 to use it with different calibers. The cloth is also much more flexible, as it can be used to clean revolver faces and other surfaces that the Lewis Lead Remover can't touch. One caveat: because the Lead-Away is basically a cloth impregnated with a mild abrasive, it can and will remove bluing. My revolvers all have a plain steel finish, so that's not an issue for me, just keep it in mind if cleaning up a nice old S&W Model 29 or similar.

Fired some CCI Blazer 165 gr. factory ammo this morning, to verify what "normal" primers look like. Apparently, having a small ridge/crater effect around the firing pin impression is normal for the M&P. Primers on the fired Blazer cases most closely resemble those from my 4.5 gr. Bullseye loads, brass shown above. I also fired some of the original, 5.0 gr. Bullseye loads in my 610 revolver. The primers look nothing like those in the first picture. A few have a subtle hint of a ridge around the firing pin impression. As in the first photo, the primers show no flattening at the edges or other usual signs of too much pressure. So it appears 5.0 gr. Bullseye, at 1020 ft/s, is an OK load after all.

I'm with the "cost savings" explanation. I shoot cast lead bullets whenever possible, because they're just so much cheaper than either jacketed or plated. Plated bullets are a nice compromise. For some, paying the premium is worth it, as the plating does prevent barrel leading.

That occurred to me, but I do wonder about the seemingly sheared-off/flattened rings around the firing pin impressions. In the meantime, I'm loading up a batch with just 4.0 gr. Bullseye. It's weak for a .40 S&W load, but definitely safe, and good enough for general plinking.

The keyholing part is fixed. Apparently it was just due to some barrel leading. I removed most of it when cleaning the gun yesterday, and shot some lighter loads this morning. No keyholes. By "lighter loads," I mean ones the same as above, except for the powder charge. Changing to 4.5 gr. Bullseye resulted in fewer funny-looking primers. Going all the way down to 4.0 gr. Bullseye, I still had a few cases with a light ring around the firing pin mark. I shoot so little factory .40 S&W that I am not sure whether this "cratering" occurs with factory ammo. I have some CCI Blazer ammo I can shoot to find out. Presumably, being CCI ammo, it uses that same #500 primer, so I should get a meaningful result. My M&P must be one of the older ones. The firing pin hole is circular.

What manuals are those? My usual sources, Lee and Alliant, don't have data for my exact bullet. The closest I could find was data for a 180 gr. FMJ, for which both sources list 5.5 gr. Bullseye as the max. Bullseye is fine for .40S&W in general, actually. It goes "bang" every time, is economical, and there is plenty of data for more common bullet types. What more do you want from a powder?

I noticed some funny-looking marks on brass after shooting my latest batch of .40 S&W reloads: See the shiny rings on the primers, around the firing pin marks? Is that anything to worry about? (The black stuff is black Sharpie, applied to the case heads before firing for brass identification & better contrast in the photos.) Brass is from my .40 S&W reloads, fired in an unmodified S&W M&P fullsize. The reloads were: 170 gr. cast lead bullet, .401" diameter CCI #500 Small Pistol primer Mixed brands of brass 5.0 gr. Bullseye COAL=1.135" (plus or minus 0.005") Taper crimped to a case mouth diameter of 0.422" (as best I can measure) Average velocity at approx. 10' from muzzle: 1024 ft/s Just wondering what's making those strange marks, and whether it means I'm doing something wrong. Possibly related: These loads keyhole badly. Many of the bullets are going sideways inside 10 yards, judging by strange holes made in a paper target yesterday. Still trying to track down the cause. I suspect I'm using too much taper crimp, but wanted to rule out other problems as well. I need to get that issue fixed before I make a large batch. The keyholing is not likely a gun problem; it doesn't happen with factory .40 S&W ammo.

The elusive Hornady #1 was briefly listed as "available" at MidwayUSA yesterday in the afternoon. But every time I tried to buy one, I got a nonsense error message. While I was trying to find enough other stuff to buy to avoid a "small order" fee, the damned things went "out of stock" again.

Has anyone set up a Glock 20 to handle extra-heavy reloads? I have a whole pile of 220 gr. plated bullets that work fine in my other 10mm guns, but cause misfeeds - regardless of powder, OAL, muzzle velocity, etc. - in my Glock 20. The only solution I haven't tried yet is use of a heavier-than-stock recoil spring. At minimum, I have to buy an aftermarket, metal guide rod like the ones offered by Wolff Gunsprings, Lone Wolf Distributors, et al. For springs, I'm thinking about the Wolff Gunsprings "Calibration Pack," which includes stock (17), 19, 20, and 22 lb. springs. I could just buy one spring, but I don't want to guess wrong and end up having to buy another two, or even three springs separately later, with the added expense & delay that would entail. Is there any use for the recoil springs I end up not using? I assume I'll find that one of the heavier springs will solve my problem, at which point I won't need the others.

First thing: Don't panic! Your equipment is fine, there's no reason to return it without even trying some loads. I don't know about the "newer Glocks," but bulged brass absolutely was a problem with a Glock 20 SF (10mm Auto) I bought a few years ago. It's one I solved by buying an aftermarket barrel, as well as new 10mm brass. Someday, I will get around to "de-Glocking" my older 10mm brass by pushing it through my Lee factory crimp die (same idea as the Redding G-Rx) with a generous amount of lube. Meanwhile, I use a Lone Wolf aftermarket barrel in my Glock 20 when shooting reloads. The Lone Wolf barrel has a tighter chamber with more case support compared to the original barrel, so it doesn't cause "Glock bulge" of the 10mm brass. Most (all?) of the aftermarket Glock barrels (Storm Lake, KKM, etc.) are like that. I suppose the "match" chamber might contribute to greater accuracy, but I was mostly interested in better case support for longer brass life and the conventional rifling. The conventional rifling lets me shoot cast lead bullets (read: cheap!) worry-free. You MIGHT end up needing to use something like the Redding G-Rx. Only way to find out is to reload some of the brass that's been shot in your Glock. Use of an aftermarket barrel is up to you. Again, wait to see whether "Glock bulge" is going to be a problem, before rushing out and dropping $100+ on an aftermarket barrel. You do have a case gage, right? A .40 S&W case gage will show you which rounds are going to slip right in, and which ones might not. The good news is that Glocks have very generously-cut chambers, so even most of the rounds which won't fit in the case gage should still chamber. Identifying which rounds are "gage-able" and which ones aren't allows you to segregate them, so that you have reloads which you know will work (e.g. for competition) and those which only "probably" will (better for practice/plinking). You might get lucky, and find that all your reloads easily slip into a .40 S&W case gage. Again, you won't know until you try it. If you don't want to buy a case gage, you can remove the barrel from your Glock and use that as a sort of go/no go gage. I find it much more convenient to use the case gage, rather than have to disassemble my Glock 20 every time I load 10mm.

As long as we're discussing CTD goofs, here's a particularly amusing one from a few years ago: Then again, maybe that wasn't a mistake at all!

The Hornady #1 shell holder was briefly back in stock at MidwayUSA, starting yesterday in the afternoon. By now, they're out of stock again, and not allowing backorders. They've remained in "backorder OK" status on the #6 shell holder throughout. I'm also well short of the minimum order to avoid a $4 "small order" fee. Cabela's is allowing backorders on both, BUT...the minimum quantity you can backorder is 4 each. So, that doesn't really work for me either. Guess I have to keep waiting.